http://www.spaceempires.net/forum-5.html Latest 25 posts on the SpaceEmpires.net forums. en-us admin@spaceempires.net admin@spaceempires.net Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:52:07 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68328.html#68328 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68328.html#68328 Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:34:27 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68325.html#68325 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68325.html#68325 Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:03:18 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68323.html#68323 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68323.html#68323 Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:59:47 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68322.html#68322 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68322.html#68322 Could anyone help me?]]> Tue, 21 Feb 2012 00:52:31 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68310.html#68310 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68310.html#68310 Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:30:09 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68214.html#68214 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68214.html#68214 Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:58:31 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68207.html#68207 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-68207.html#68207
I did make a supersized version with 1/10th ships and 10x planets, tho.
And I made a trial version with sorta-newtonian propulsion, but the AI really can't handle that :)
(There is effectively no max speed, as it takes about three system lengths to get going that fast. Accel and turn rate are dictated by your engine power. You've got to hit the brakes halfway to your destination, and if your engines get shot out you fly straight on until you hit something or suicide in deep space. Combat is actually quite difficult, since you can't dogfight. Unless both ships slow way down they'll zoom right past each other and only get off a volley or two)...
Hey SJ, thanks for sending the link to these mods.
A couple of questions though.
In the Supersized mod I notice that ships are 1/10th but the planets are the same size. Do you have a different version of this?
I played around with different size values and found that doubling the size of the planets and tripling the map size is the largest I could manage without making the map screen unusably large. Did you manage to find a way around this?

Also with the Newtonian mod, I don't seem to get the effects you describe. Acceleration and turn rate are extremely slow, but killing the engines doesn't seem to result in the ship continuing straight at the same velocity, and turning seems to result in a change in vector, not just facing.
Perhaps I haven't set it up right?I'm sure I tried making the planets bigger, but maybe that part didn't work out as you found. I don't recall using the map screen much, but I may have tried and then undone it.

The change in vector vs heading is hardcode SF. Nothing you can do about that. Accel is indeed quite low; add more engines to improve it. You should never reach top speed tho.
What do you mean by "killing the engines"? If you mean setting throttle to zero, that's full-retro thrust. I meant "shooting out the engines". If the engines are destroyed, then your accel and turn rate are zero, but your top speed remains huge, so you coast helplessly.]]> Sun, 22 Jan 2012 13:28:54 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67880.html#67880 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67880.html#67880 I don't have a copy of the game handy, but I seem to remember that the engagement ranges are set in Main_Enemies.txt.

I remember I increased the values to make the baddies engage sooner and longer.]]> Sat, 21 Jan 2012 09:02:03 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67868.html#67868 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67868.html#67868
From Main_AI_Script.txt

AI Name := Pirate Short Range
Number Of Possible States := 2
State 1 Name := Chase
State 1 Min Distance := 10
State 1 Max Distance := 5000
State 1 Chance := 50
State 1 Min Time := 6000
State 1 Max Time := 12000
State 1 Number Of Used Patterns := 0
State 2 Name := Pattern
State 2 Min Distance := 0
State 2 Max Distance := 40
State 2 Chance := 50
State 2 Min Time := 6000
State 2 Max Time := 12000
State 2 Number Of Used Patterns := 2
State 2 Pattern 1 Name := Box Target
State 2 Pattern 1 Chance := 50
State 2 Pattern 2 Name := Charge In and Out Target
State 2 Pattern 2 Chance := 50

There are two "states" a ship on this strategy can choose. There is a 50% chance to choose each state.

State 1 is Chase. Pretty self explanatory, it follows you between the listed time range and between the listed ranges.

State 2 is Pattern. These patterns are defined earlier in the file. There are 2 patterns in this state, each with a 50% chance of executing. I haven't gotten very deep into how patterns work yet.

I'm guessing that the strategy kicks in when a ship enters "engagement range". I don't know if that is max weapon range or some kind of hardcoded value or what. It will pick a state and run with it for the listed duration, then pick another, etc. until the ship moves out of engagement range, or the AI ship locks onto another target in range.

I changed the strategy to this:

AI Name := Pirate Short Range
Number Of Possible States := 1
State 1 Name := Chase
State 1 Min Distance := 10
State 1 Max Distance := 65
State 1 Chance := 100
State 1 Min Time := 6000
State 1 Max Time := 12000
State 1 Number Of Used Patterns := 0

I tested this strategy on pirate fighters. Essentially, they will stay within 10 to 65 ls of my ship. The exact duration is irrelevant here, because there is only one pattern. With the range being so short, shaking those fighters off is virtually impossible. My ship was blown up several times because I got several fighters stuck on my tail. (My mod spawns lots of pirate fighters randomly in systems.)

The fighters seem to try to stick to the rear, but they are kinda bad at it. If there are multiple fighters they also occasionally ram each other trying to avoid ramming you. Increasing the range a bit might help with that.

One caveat: fighters (and presumably ships) in task groups fly in formation on the leader. If the leader moves away, the fighters will disengage their attack to stay in formation.]]> Sat, 21 Jan 2012 02:03:56 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67866.html#67866 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67866.html#67866 Also, where is the ship model you are playing from? Did you make it yourself, like the pirate?

I'm actually considering dusting off my own mod to mess with the AI patterns.
At -55 PDs still seem to have no problem hitting fighters, though I feel the current damage is too low
In SEV one or two hits vaporizes most fighters, so I'd like to bring this a bit closer to that.
I eventually plan to rework the fighters to follow the SEV model more closely. The SF ones seem too big and powerful at the moment.

I've actually been playing with the PD to triple the rate of fire, with a commensurate damage reduction.
This means that seekers will require more than one hit. In initial tests it was only getting about 50% kill rate on incoming missiles so I will need to play with it a bit to get it dialed in and balanced.
I like the idea of a high ROF PD though, and have changed the bitmap effects and sound (more of a turbo chaingun sound) files to match.

The ships in the screen shots are taken from the Gurak, and Caldari sets, both from my SEV Reduced Size Shipsets Pack.

Your input on the AI routines would be most welcome.
My limited experiments in that area have not been entirely satisfactory.]]> Thu, 19 Jan 2012 01:00:51 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67848.html#67848 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67848.html#67848 Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:11:16 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67844.html#67844 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67844.html#67844 Also, where is the ship model you are playing from? Did you make it yourself, like the pirate?

You've inspired me to dust off my own mod to mess with the AI patterns.]]> Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:11:16 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67843.html#67843 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67843.html#67843 In SEV tests it seems that lvl 1 PD and Combat sensors get about a 75%-80% vs lvl 1 seekers.
As I mentioned earlier you need to dial in about a -55 modifier to Starfury PD to get close to this level of leakiness.
Even then you have to be close enough so that the PD only gets one shot because it almost never misses twice.
Even with this handicap, against a lvl 2 PD/Sensor combination, I found I could get hits with my torpedoes only at a range of 20 or less (still with about a 50% stoppage rate).

Actually this makes for a very cool feeling, with a need to time your shots between return missile fire and make sweeping runs in on your target.
With the much reduced turn and accel values, it makes combat feel remarkably like those old Star Trek TOS vs the Klingons battles!

http://files.spaceempires.net/user/2953/QuantumHit.jpg

This shot was taken just after a successful attack run.
It also shows off the shield effects that I copied over from the ones I created for the Reduced Scale Shipsets for SEV.

Strangely, there seems to be a minimum setting size for shield effects and they cycle much faster than in SEV.
To get this size and similar duration I had to actually reduce the dimensions of each frame of the .bmp, and double the number of frames. Bit of a pain, but I like the effect.

Another 'tricky' feature shown here is that I have actually increased the size of the pirate ship by about 50% over the size of the player model.
With them both the same (1/10th stock) size, I was finding that I wasn't able to appreciate the details of the new models I was using.
Due to the camera perspective and distance the increased size really doesn't seem incongruous, even at nearly point blank like this. The increase in detail is very noticeable at more medium ranges though .

As for the AI routines, they actually seem more straightforward than I had imagined. As you said Skyburn, all the patterns and behavor are in the text files. I believe the main issue with the pirates is due to overuse of a number of 'Pirate Evade Pattern' routines used by LR ships.
Tweaking these to a more aggressive pattern, along with the changes to the firing arcs and weapons (I swapped out the pirates choice of Ionic missiles for Plasma :twisted: ) should make the pirates a lot more credible of a threat.

It will take a fair bit more tweaking and test to tie all these elements into a decent package though.
Unfortunately SF is a bitch to test such things with. After every tweak you have to start a bloody new game!
:evil:]]> Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:30:38 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67820.html#67820 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67820.html#67820
You ARE going to publish it on SE.net, right? :lol:

ETA: @ekolis - :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do a barrel roll, indeed.]]> Mon, 16 Jan 2012 21:42:17 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67819.html#67819 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67819.html#67819
I did make a supersized version with 1/10th ships and 10x planets, tho.
And I made a trial version with sorta-newtonian propulsion, but the AI really can't handle that :)
(There is effectively no max speed, as it takes about three system lengths to get going that fast. Accel and turn rate are dictated by your engine power. You've got to hit the brakes halfway to your destination, and if your engines get shot out you fly straight on until you hit something or suicide in deep space. Combat is actually quite difficult, since you can't dogfight. Unless both ships slow way down they'll zoom right past each other and only get off a volley or two)...
Hey SJ, thanks for sending the link to these mods.
A couple of questions though.
In the Supersized mod I notice that ships are 1/10th but the planets are the same size. Do you have a different version of this?
I played around with different size values and found that doubling the size of the planets and tripling the map size is the largest I could manage without making the map screen unusably large. Did you manage to find a way around this?

Also with the Newtonian mod, I don't seem to get the effects you describe. Acceleration and turn rate are extremely slow, but killing the engines doesn't seem to result in the ship continuing straight at the same velocity, and turning seems to result in a change in vector, not just facing.
Perhaps I haven't set it up right?]]> Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:39:56 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67802.html#67802 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67802.html#67802 1) Point defence seems very effective against seekers, even at quite low levels. Any way to adjust this?

Maybe increasing the reload time and reducing the range of the PD gun. I'm not sure if seeker armor can be modded, but if it can then increasing the armor so it takes multiple PD shots to down a missile may help.

To be honest, I've always thought PD ineffective vs seekers. If you fire two seekers at the same time at a PD equipped ship, one will get shot down; the second will hit. The only time this isn't true is if the target ship is running away, then both will usually get shot down. My favorite ship in stock was the Abbidon Battleship. It could mount six missiles. I would just need to fly within missile range and keep spinning the ship around while firing missiles. Even enemy starbases don't last long under that kind of barrage.

2) The combat AI seems to constist mainly of running away, with only the occasional full stop, or attack run. Its quite simple to latch onto a ship's tail and hammer away at the rear armor until its killed.
Any way to alter this? There is a Main AI Script file, but it seem to deal mainly with ship movement on the sector map, not with tactical combat.

It seems like the scripts in Main AI are used for combat, too. From Main_Enemies.txt:
Name := Amonkrie Destroyer M
...
AI Script Name Outside Response Range := Amonkrie Circle
AI Script Name Within Range := Amonkrie Long Range

Maybe by messing with the X and Y offsets for the patterns in the first part of Main_AI_Script.txt you can make a script that sticks to an enemy's rear?

I imagine you would then have to make a custom strategy in the second part of AI_Main that uses your custom pattern. (I hate Starfury's stupid multiple part data files.)
You may be right about the effectiveness of PD vs. Seekers. I have mainly been playing with the graphics and movement, so I haven't actually got much beyond the cruiser level. PD is 100% effective against a single missle though, and still quite effective against two.

I played a bit with modding the accuracy of PD, to try to get it down to about a 75% save rate against a single missle, but it looks like you have to add a -55 modifier to get close to that level.
Not sure if I want to go with that much of a shift to be honest. The other route would be to increase missile structure so that they take more than one hit to destroy, but I suspect that may make missles a bit too effective.
I think I will play around with it a bit more.

I like the idea of changing the AI combat routines, but I don't have much experience with that, unfortunately. Something for the future, unless you are willing to take a stab at it?
In the meantime, I did make a change that bumps up the challenge a bit.

I really wasn't fond of the pirate models, with their vague textures and purple stripes, so I switched them out for some new models, like this destroyer.
http://files.spaceempires.net/user/2953/Pirate.jpg

While I was setting them up I took the opportunity to considerably expand their firing arcs especially towards the rear quarters.
This means that their favorite tactic of fighting by running away actually makes sense, as they have lots more opportunities to fire.
It has certainly made hunting them down a lot more dangerous (and cooler to watch!)]]> Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:56:41 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67794.html#67794 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67794.html#67794 1) Point defence seems very effective against seekers, even at quite low levels. Any way to adjust this?

Maybe increasing the reload time and reducing the range of the PD gun. I'm not sure if seeker armor can be modded, but if it can then increasing the armor so it takes multiple PD shots to down a missile may help.

To be honest, I've always thought PD ineffective vs seekers. If you fire two seekers at the same time at a PD equipped ship, one will get shot down; the second will hit. The only time this isn't true is if the target ship is running away, then both will usually get shot down. My favorite ship in stock was the Abbidon Battleship. It could mount six missiles. I would just need to fly within missile range and keep spinning the ship around while firing missiles. Even enemy starbases don't last long under that kind of barrage.

2) The combat AI seems to constist mainly of running away, with only the occasional full stop, or attack run. Its quite simple to latch onto a ship's tail and hammer away at the rear armor until its killed.
Any way to alter this? There is a Main AI Script file, but it seem to deal mainly with ship movement on the sector map, not with tactical combat.

It seems like the scripts in Main AI are used for combat, too. From Main_Enemies.txt:
Name := Amonkrie Destroyer M
...
AI Script Name Outside Response Range := Amonkrie Circle
AI Script Name Within Range := Amonkrie Long Range

Maybe by messing with the X and Y offsets for the patterns in the first part of Main_AI_Script.txt you can make a script that sticks to an enemy's rear?

I imagine you would then have to make a custom strategy in the second part of AI_Main that uses your custom pattern. (I hate Starfury's stupid multiple part data files.)]]> Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:59:57 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67783.html#67783 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67783.html#67783
http://i.imgur.com/Bwy9g.png]]> Sat, 14 Jan 2012 20:47:13 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67782.html#67782 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67782.html#67782
I did make a supersized version with 1/10th ships and 10x planets, tho.
And I made a trial version with sorta-newtonian propulsion, but the AI really can't handle that :)
(There is effectively no max speed, as it takes about three system lengths to get going that fast. Accel and turn rate are dictated by your engine power. You've got to hit the brakes halfway to your destination, and if your engines get shot out you fly straight on until you hit something or suicide in deep space. Combat is actually quite difficult, since you can't dogfight. Unless both ships slow way down they'll zoom right past each other and only get off a volley or two)


P&Nism does have a lot of work on combat & damage however.
Shields are weak but regenerate.
Armor is quite tough per weight, but has to be replaced at a SY when it takes hits. By replaced I mean sell the holey scrap and swap in brand new plates.
Internals are fairly tough, and can be auto-repaired by crew members.

A big point in my mind is that Internal damage is survivable (I like living on the edge in SF). You do need to lay out your components in a redundant way, get out of the line of fire, and prioritize repairs to lifesupport so you don't suck vacuum, but you can get away with a lot more than stock.

Weapons are generally split into three categories.
Light weapons have great damage/kt.
Heavy weapons have much better damage/slot but aren't efficient
Discharge weapons are max damage/kt & /slot, but will rip through your supplies and then stop working.

Supply storage is vastly greater, and reactors are nerfed.
It is entirely reasonable for a cargo hauler to not have any reactors, simply running on stored power to fend off the occasional pirate fighter and recharge for free at its ports of call


Larger ship classes are also pretty serious. When you're flying around in a frigate, and a pirate cruiser gets on your trail, you're in trouble. But if you can run for one of the TNS battleships, she'll be an angel of mercy and vengeance laying waste to that cruiser with a broadside volley of quantum torpedoes, Never ever get between a battleship and its victim :D

Another nifty idea is the leaky armor. Episode 2 has the option of making your starting ship the leaky armor fighter. Upside is missiles can't target you. Downside is that PD cannons CAN.
The leaky armor is simply a ring of hull slots around the outside of your ship that allow armor plates in. They don't provide armor facings, but they are hit first if the attack comes from a reasonable angle. And you can get arbitrarily shaped holes in your armor, not just one of four quadrants.

http://imagemodserver.dyndns.org/other/MM/SF/screenshots/pirate%20attack1.gif]]> Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:00:44 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67775.html#67775 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67775.html#67775
With regards to mod physics, SuicideJunkie's P&N mod made changes to most things. Maybe there will be some useful ideas for you there. I can't remember offhand if he changed acceleration and turn rates.
It seems that the eccentric variance with the firing point positioning is a feature of the engine.
That would explain why most of the stock ships have their weapons mounted pretty centrally. It also isn't near as obvious with the stock size ships as it is when the ships are reduced to 1/10th size.
As a solution I went back and just moved all the firing points that I had so meticulously placed on outlying pylons nearer the centerline.
One positive aspect is that I am now getting damn fast at setting up shipsets, firingpoints, Inv. Slots, etc!

I had a look at SJ's P&N mod, but aside from adjusting the components and store items it doesn't seem to change any of the actual physics (accel, turn rates, etc) of the movement.
In any case I reduced both elements a further 20% and now the ships are starting to move a bit more like the ponderous metal monsters they are.

There are now 2 main issues that I'd like to deal with, if possible.
1) Point defence seems very effective against seekers, even at quite low levels. Any way to adjust this?
2) The combat AI seems to constist mainly of running away, with only the occasional full stop, or attack run. Its quite simple to latch onto a ship's tail and hammer away at the rear armor until its killed.
Any way to alter this? There is a Main AI Script file, but it seem to deal mainly with ship movement on the sector map, not with tactical combat.]]> Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:14:23 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67736.html#67736 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67736.html#67736
With regards to mod physics, SuicideJunkie's P&N mod made changes to most things. Maybe there will be some useful ideas for you there. I can't remember offhand if he changed acceleration and turn rates.]]> Tue, 10 Jan 2012 13:09:24 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67729.html#67729 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67729.html#67729 It just looks wrong if the fire comes from the wrong spot.
A lot of work with Slot modder, and with the Space objects file, to get things all in line.

Luckily its pretty ease to adapt the SEV Shipset Viewer to check that all is in the right place, otherwise it would be necessary to start a new game after each change just to check layouts.

http://files.spaceempires.net/user/2953/SlotModding.jpg

I do notice that models seem to be placed a little bit off center (even if the actual .x file coordinates are zeroed) as there is a slight eliptical movement that can result in firing points looking off at some points if you do a full 360 turn.
Anyone have any ideas on how to fix this issue?

Anyway, I pretty much have the new shipset worked out, and standardized with the other races.

I'm now starting to look at adapting the components to be more in line with the values for SEV BM.
One thing that I struck me as well off was the accelleration and turn rate. Gosh, we had battleships that handled like snub fighters!
For the time being, I have halved both values across the board, which gives the ships a bit more reasonable feeling of weight and inertia, but I can see its going to take a bit of work to get this aspect dialed in properly.

Oh, I also bumped the system size up to 3 times stock, which with the tenth size ship models now means that there is 30 times more relative space between planet.
It makes a huge difference to the feel of combat, which in the stock game is often an exercise in dodging around the stupidly small planets.

I'm convinced there is a decent space combat game hidden in here...
Its just a matter of tweaking the elements a bit.]]> Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:35:49 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67717.html#67717 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67717.html#67717 Yeah, but the changes are basically just graphic tweaks so easy enough to use in just about any mod, I guess.
Though SF is quite a bit less mod friendly than SEV.

Perhaps that's part of the explanation why mods for it are so sparse?

Its too bad, as given the structure of the game, and the currently available models, someone with a bit of time (not me at the moment unfortunately) could put together some interesting Star Trek or Star Wars style mission based campaigns.]]> Sat, 07 Jan 2012 19:49:59 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67707.html#67707 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67707.html#67707 Sat, 07 Jan 2012 14:00:08 GMT http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67703.html#67703 http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-67703.html#67703