AI Design Improvements

CaptainKwok · Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: AI Design Improvements

I'm re-working AI designs this week for the next version of the mod to be released with the next SE:V patch. I'm looking for what you guys think are effective general designs for combat ships etc.

ColonialAdmiral · Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject:

Well in the begining of the game at least, fast csm frigates own...

and also, Meason blasters!!!

se5a · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 23, 2004

I like to include a solar panel on my larger (lt cruser and up) attack ships.

early game a scout troop transport (frigate) can be fun too.

Kirk · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 26, 2007

organic blitz, tech devolpment which produces ship with fighter bay, ( with org fighters +small weapons increase) 2 org armour, parasite launcher, set as max dist stratergy. very nasty.

Litcube · Space Emperor Joined: May 01, 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC

I've noticed that the ships in 1.06 encompass the offensive capability of the Philadelphia Fliers.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject:

The Flyers main problem was goaltending and defense - not so much offense.

ColonialAdmiral · Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject:

I've noticed that the carrier hybrids that I've built, that are warships, with one or two fighter bays, can be pretty effective...It would probably be wasted on the AI however, as they have problems loading fighters...

Grendelio · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Location: Spain

- Small fighters: AI designs usually have one small supply storage. I´d put extra armor instead. Fighters use to die quite easily, and a dead fighter does not need extra supplies.

- Same for small troops: instead of 1 extra ammo/supply put 2 extra armor, so they can withstand a few more shots.

- And I´d say the same about frigates. IMO, it is better an almost supplyless frigate alive than a dead frigate full of ammo/supplies. Specially in the case of PD frigates, that have only one DUC as armament.

-Why put combat sensors in a defence frigate? they affect only one PDW, so they become very expensive in cost/efficience terms... put extra armor instead, so they get more time to use that PDW. In mid/end game, use flack cannons, that have a +20 to hit for free.

-Fighters with small rocket pods instead of 2 DUC? they´ll get 1 extra ton to put more armor!

-Many AI small weapon platforms have 4 DUC and 1 PDW. These can be beaten easily CSM frigates, or mass fighters, firing at the planet from max range. I´d suggest to put 1 extra PDW and 1 extra armor to counter this.

-AI colonizers have tons of armor. What about adding one PDW instead of 2 armor? This way they could fight small groups of fighters, or just gain a few extra seconds when running away from fighters/CSM frigates in the early game. That would give them more chances of survival, IMO.

-It seems that bigger AI ships don´t use solar sails. A big mistake, IMO.

-Big AI ships usually have several PDW of the same type. It could be much better to mix different types of PDW.

Litcube · Space Emperor Joined: May 01, 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC

Capn', the Fliers scored the least amount of goals in the entire Eastern Conference this season.

Hey, how about more guns per ship! I can only find ships with one weapon so far.

Dvoongar · Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:29 am Post subject:

It would help if the AI knew to bury its engines (add them as last "o" component). This helps crippled ships escape.

I just discovered the "strategy" tool, and I'm working on making my ships smarter. They really need to retreat a little earlier, but some parts of the interface don't seem to be working. I haven't tried it under stock yet, but I'm guessing it'll be the same there.

The target selection priorities part seems to work fine, and I've got my drones set to go after the big targets now.

As far as designs go, I've imported the Trek shipsets, and the Romulan's building a lot of weapon-heavy, fast designs. They're thin-skinned, which is appropriate for Romulans. None of the other AI's have the tech/resources to compete with me, so I don't know about them.

I did see a scout with 3 solar collectors and only 1 weapon. Such ships really should avoid combat. Maybe a "scout" strategy with retreat vs. armed enemies? But I can get the retreat adjustments to work, so that'll have to wait.

Making strategies that work well with the designs might be easier than improving on your design formulas at this point. The defaults don't cut it, but with a little tweaking, they could do much better.

I would like to see a slow (6-9) warship with more armour/shields come out of the AI sometime, but other than that I can't complain much.

Oh yeah, is default in the mod to break formation immediately under all circumstances? That's a dubious policy. At least when assaulting planets, the troop ships need others to stay with them and distract the guns. Of course, a special weapon base strategy could counter this too! But my point is that formations can be advantageous - PD's can coordinate, etc. But maybe I got it wrong. This may not even be a result of the mod, or maybe the "stream tactic" I see so much of has proven superior.

One question while I'm here: do my strategies apply only to my ships, or are they global? I saw one very suspicious battle where a DUC frigate approached my unarmed colony ship (alliances change - normally I'm prepared) and then would back off before shooting. Eventually it fired a few shots, but my colonists escaped. I don't think I did anything that would cause that, but I did tinker with the strategies quite a bit and I have been known to make mistakes.

Grendelio · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Location: Spain

Another thing I´ve noticed: many AI designs (at high tech levels) use lots of shields but doesn´t use shield regenerators, losing a lot of advantage this way.

Dvoongar · Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:33 am Post subject:

Like Grendelio said, colonizers can use a PD. That goes for all the transports too.

I've been watching the AI designs pretty closely, and between your mod and the shipsets, I'm impressed (I don't know who gets how much credit for what). There's even an LC class with just tons of armor and a couple of hard-hitters - much like one of my own designs.

I'm working pretty hard on the tactical doctrines, and I'll try to share what I come up with. I guess it'd be considered an AI mod, although you can change these settings for your own empire within the game.

Speaking of PD's, I know it's off-topic; but I find it odd that they get a logistical free ride. They've got a lot of mojo and use zip - no supplies or ammo. I'd suggest 30 or 40 ammo included, and 1 consumed per shot; but do as you see fit.

Edit:
I'm always forgetting something. Shipyard bases & maybe repair bases should have one or two weapons & perhaps a PD. Something that big can absorb a lot of firepower, so even a single weapon would be expected to get several shots off before it dies. It can't hurt to protect such a big investment, either.

Grendelio · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Location: Spain

Dvoongar · Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:36 am Post subject:

Noticed a couple of things in my game tonight. It's 1.35/1.07, and tech's still pretty low.

1. Xoronn fighter-bomber with no weapons. It had 4 engines and 6 armour, but nothing at all for offense. A swarm of these was launched by a carrier and they immediately made a run for the border.

2. Xoronn light carrier (and all other enemy lcv's) has no ordnance. I understand fighters draw from carriers when they land, and if this is true they'll be wanting ordnance from time to time.

I haven't had a chance to scope AI boarding ships, but I'll mention that a boarding ship needs a speed of 8-10 if it is to be effective. Any slower and it can't get in range. Any faster and it'll "chase" the target and force it to outrun the troop pod.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:31 am Post subject:

Find updated scripts here They should avoid this problem.
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/v108ScriptFix.zip

Note that it will take a bit of time for the race to replace their old fighter bombers.

Just extract to your Balance Mod folder.

Dvoongar · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject:

Didn't want to start a new topic over this, but BM 1.12 AIs (at least for shipset races) are building a lot of ships of all classes with crew and/or life spt in outside slots. Making life very easy for my crystalline ships.

Problem may be just my own. I've been having other unique troubles lately, and nothing makes any sense. Still, I thought I should report something this important.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject:

When the life support and crew quarters were dropped to 5kT, some ships didn't have enough inner slots to hold them up plus other important components on the inner hull. So I have the AI split them between inner and outer slots.

In v1.15, I might split LS/CQ into small and large versions.

Dvoongar · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject:

Something'll need to be done. AI can't use mid & lower decks?

Even if they're split, the sequence might be reworked so that at least one of each ends up inside. Some of these ships go down without much of a fight at all vs. crystalline volleys. It's really going to imbalance that racial trait.

Speaking of designs, I've never seen FF or DD ships with fighter bays. I just began using "pup carriers" myself, and they've got some mojo. First impression is that the bay needs to cost more weight, since a 50-size CSM can't compare to a 30-size bay full of 8 fighters. I know the fighters aren't free, but they can be built quickly on yardless worlds that aren't doing anything. It can also be "justified" since the equipment to service fighters should take up more space than the equipment to service sats or mines. But these are just initial thoughts.

Regardless of balance, pup carriers would be a nice addition to the AI's arsenal. My early designs were lv2 FF tech hybrids, and packed one weapon in addition to the bay. The CSM model can take down 2 standard FF's no problem. The direct-fire models don't perform so well, but I need them vs. sats & stuff. This is due to the seeker/fighter synergy, overloading PDs.

Drone bay hybrids are another possibility, although I don't yet have the tech to try it out.

And the way the AI builds fighters, it'd be hard to have too much capacity. I've been building a lot more units than I usually do, and the AI's all had twice as many as I did, last time I checked. (Except 1 dumb empire that made enemies with everyone & couldn't expand.)

I'll stop rambling now. Original topic was crew & life spt. Shoot!

CaptainKwok · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject:

I don't think it's the position of the LS/CQ in the design that is making your Crystalline conquest better. It takes a complete loss of either component to trigger the movement penalty and by that time, the ship is more or less dead already.

Vrihedd · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 31, 2007

What do you think about armed colonisers and other non combatants for bloodthirsty race?

They can be very effective especially in first years of game.
They are very dangerous for lone frigate and have chances in duel with destroyer.

Greystar · Space Emperor Joined: Jan 08, 2008 Location: 8th Dimension

prisoner881 · Space Emperor Joined: Jul 15, 2007

I don't know about armed colonizers. I've never armed mine and it's never been a problem. I just don't send colonizers into systems that I can't defend.

Here's how I colonize:

- If the system is empty, I blockade the WP's I don't control and colonize all planets within.

- If the system isn't empty, I'll blockade the WP's I don't control and station a small defense group (fighters, usually) in orbit around the planet I intend to colonize. That defense group stays in place until the planet is able to defend itself or I'm able to wipe out the other enemy colonies in the system.

- If the system is controlled by an enemy force, I storm the point, block it behind me with a small defense group, then glass every planet in the system. Once all resistance is gone, I move my defense groups into blocking the WP's leading to enemy systems. Then I send in the colonizers.

Call me crazy but I just don't use Troops at all. I find it easier from a logistical standpoint to just glass the planets and bring in my own people rather than ferry troops around. With a fleet of 40-60 ships (40-50 combat vessels plus support ships) I can glass an entire system in two or three turns.

Sure, I'm blowing up a lot of infrastructure that might seem useful to capture, but it's not very useful to me. I'm almost always ahead of my enemies in tech so there's nothing useful there. The population might be nice to have, but genocide has the advantage of no rebellious population. And I ferry in lots of population from other worlds rather rapidly. If I could capture and assimilate racial techs then I might consider it, but I can't.

Does anyone else find it easier to glass than to invade? Or the other way around?

CaptainKwok · Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject:

I like to invade when possible to gain the extra population - particularly when it's a different breathing population than my own. I don't usually try and captured their dome planets unless it's helpful at the time due to the above reasons.

Capturing planets is also more demoralizing (ie increases population unhappiness) to the enemy than space combat. This plays a more important role in PBW games than solo games.

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I made some revisions to how the AI sends out its colony ships in v1.13. They won't send them to systems with enemy colonies anymore and if they send them to a system marked as a location system, they will try and pick up a Weapon Platform before establishing the colony.

prisoner881 · Space Emperor Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Yeah, last night I noted my Colonization Minister picked up a Weapons Platform with a colonizer that was en route to an enemy system. That's the first time I'd ever seen that happen.

I wish he'd do that more often. I turn out colonizers back at my homeworlds (fastest build rate). I'd love it if I could designate a planet to stockpile WP's, then have the Minister direct colony ships there to pick up a WP before heading out. Is that even possible?

CaptainKwok · Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject:

You're probably better off just giving the Colony Ship a remote load cargo order for WPs with the target being your WP planet and then a colonize order after. It's just two orders and forget about it, so not too much manual labor.

The ministers are setup generally for how the AI works as a whole, not as what would be more useful for a player's micromanagement. It's why most of them to irritating things. Razz