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Spaceempires.net :: Balance Mod v1.20 Tech Preview :: View topic
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Balance Mod v1.20 Tech Preview
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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Balance Mod v1.20 Tech Preview Reply with quote

The .pdf file linked below with this post contains a preview of the revised tech tree for Balance Mod v1.20.

New items are in red text and items that have had either their tech requirements or number of levels changed are in blue text.

The most significant changes are the breaking up of stellar manipulation into several tech areas and the addition of small seekers. You'll also notice quite a few components/facilities have interspersed tech requirements. An example with the planet utilization tech area:

Code:
Planet Utilization:
Climate Control Facility (1,4,7,10,13)
Value Improvement Plant (2,5,8,11,14)
Atmospheric Modification Plant (3,6,9,12,15)


This change helps increase the variety in turn-to-turn research gains and also allows for some technologies to appear a bit earlier in the game.

Balance Mod v1.20 Tech Preview Chart:
http://files.spaceempires.net/user/9/BalanceModv120TechChartPreview.pdf

Edit:
See this post for an updated Tech Chart:
http://home.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-75730.html#75730


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


Last edited by CaptainKwok on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice!

I really like that Value Improvement Planets and Atmospheric Converters appear earlier on now, as it was REALLY annoying to have to research every last level of the almost meaningless Climate Control Facilities just to get to the good stuff! (Speaking of Climate Control Facilities being almost meaningless, did you do anything to make them more meaningful)

Nullspace shields? Interesting... so now there is a defense against nullspace weapons? Is there nullspace armor too?

I like the new Conservation tech, though I hope it doesn't render the Advanced Power Conservation racial trait obsolete. Also talking about cultural techs, does Environment actually improve the conditions of all planets in your empire over time, just like the Nature Shrine? Don't want to make that obsolete either - or the Climate Control Facilities!

What's the difference between the standard and "combat" versions of the Master Computer and Drone Computer Core? Does the standard one come with a huge attack/defense penalty, or does it prevent the use of weapons? Also, the standard Drone Computer Core seems to have more prerequisites than the combat version! Is that a typo?

You resurrected the supply and ordnance pods from stock? Why? Weren't they removed because they were a micromanagement nightmare? Or are the new ones different?

I like the new weapons, especially the lasers (yay, an alternative to DUC's!) and the small PD guns!

I don't really see much point in Xenoarchaeology if it's just a one-time 30K RP cost to unlock any ruins techs that you may have discovered. Maybe if different ruins techs required different levels of Xenoarchaeology, or if the level of Xenoarchaeology you researched factored into the component level of your Massive Shield Depleter or whatnot, then it would be interesting? Or even if you went with a full-blown Carrier Battles style system, where you had several Xenoarchaeology techs, each unlocked by a racial trait, with the more expensive traits giving better results or cheaper research costs or something!

What's a Psychic Node? Is that like the Psychic version of the Neural Combat Interface?


That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Climate Control Facilities are more important than previously because of the happiness penalty for colonies with poor conditions (introduced in v1.19i) and with the pollution add-on (might be added as standard). The environmental achievement will have the same effect but with the galaxy scope.

Vehicles with a Master Computer or Drone Computer Core won't be able to use direct-fire or seeking weapons. They can still use warheads. The combat versions of those components will allow all weapons to be used.

Supply and Ordnance Pods will provide remote distribution of supplies/ordnance in the same sector.

You're right about the Psychic Node being a racial version of the Neural Interface.


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mwyeoh
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 20, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome list of changes!

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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooh, I like the remote distribution components! I wonder, though - will the "share resupply depot usage" treaty mean that allies can drain your ships' supply/ordnance by moving into the same sector, then?

And... wait a second, can't you already manually transfer supplies between ships? I hope these components are relatively small and cheap, otherwise they'll be pointless! Maybe if you gave them a range of a few sectors...


That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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Skyburn
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 12, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ekolis wrote:
I wonder, though - will the "share resupply depot usage" treaty mean that allies can drain your ships' supply/ordnance by moving into the same sector, then?

No. The supply sharing treaty lets you load supplies/ordnance from planets only.


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and on the topic of Xenoarchaeology being useless, there are two other prerequisite techs that are similarly pointless: Cultural Studies and Weapon Mounts. They're both so cheap that there's really no point to having them in the game as prerequisites!

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's for organizational and aesthetic purposes. Razz

I'll likely change the supply/ordnance pod components to have a system scope. You'll be able to set up remote supply bases as de facto resupply depots. They won't be nearly as effecient as the facility but in empty systems it should help. It also saves on micromanaging supply transfers etc.


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
I'll likely change the supply/ordnance pod components to have a system scope. You'll be able to set up remote supply bases as de facto resupply depots. They won't be nearly as effecient as the facility but in empty systems it should help. It also saves on micromanaging supply transfers etc.


Yay! Very Happy Just gotta be careful to not deplete your ship's supplies... probably best to use a base with tons of solar collectors!


That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a remote distribution ability in Warp 10. But as an inherent ability of a special type of base. Of course in Warp 10 you can simply put a bunch of warp cores on the base.

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rnl
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 02, 2008

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually CCmod 9 has remote supplies depot and even without a power core the base is kept at 100% supplies. But I never tested it in combat, it not design for that purpose. Oh it's a system scope range.

http://sites.google.com/site/crimsonconceptmod/


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rnl, are you saying that a bug causes remote supply distribution on ships to not drain the source ship's supplies? Shocked

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, he's talking about a component that has ALL the abilities of a resupply depot, not just the distribution ability.

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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, that makes sense...

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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LordZsar1
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Location: Leipzig, Deutschland

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mmh, a hybrid hull for RT1+RT2 races would be nice, would it not?

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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings.

Attached to this post is an updated copy of the Balance Mod v1.20 tech chart. There's a few changes versus the original version linked to in the first post.

Updated Tech Chart for v1.20:
http://files.spaceempires.net/user/9/BalanceModv120TechChart.pdf

Items in green text are new additions versus Balance Mod v1.19 while purple text items have been modified either by number of levels or tech requirements. Items in red strikethrough text have been dropped.

One of the main changes versus the first chart is the dropping of the small versions of point-defense weapons for fighters. It turns out in practice having seekers target fighters made them too much like small ships. Instead I've kept the new small versions of seekers with an emphasis on using them on the "Fighter Bomber" design type in an anti-ship role and the "Fighter" design type being focused on fighter-fighter, fighter-troop type roles.

Another change that doesn't appear on the chart but will be a new feature is the restriction of certain weapon types in conjunction with Master Computers. For example, many of the Psychic weapons will not be allowed to be used in conjunction on non-crewed vehicles.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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serge
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for ordance production. the new tech chart looks very interesting.

Something different I was always whishing for: can you implement saving vehicle designs from one game to another? Since I mostly use the 'same' designs in every game it would come in handy ...

thx for your work!


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately there is nothing I can add to save your ship designs. It was a feature that didn't carry over from SE4.

I will post an updated version of the tech chart later today. There's been a number of changes since the last version, including the redesigned ship contruction techs and further interspersing of components/weapons within the tech areas.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the most recent revision. This should be very close to the final tech tree for v1.20:
http://files.spaceempires.net/user/9/BalanceModv120TechChartPreviewIII.pdf

The big changes since the last preview was the re-structuring of the ship construction technologies. I also eliminated the "levels" for Mines. There are the same three sizes but now the "cloak" level of the mines is received automatically and is applied to all existing mines. Lastly I've continued to intersperse more of the components/vehicles within the tech areas. This way the tech tree length remains long, but I can get away with fewer levels for individual components but give them more upgrade worthy increases per level.

I've more or less completed all the data file changes but need to a quick update to the AI files to account for the changes. Once I do that I will release a v1.20 Beta that you guys can play with and provide feedback while I work on a proper AI update along with additional tweaks to fix a few ship scaling issues etc.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Skyburn
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 12, 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
I also eliminated the "levels" for Mines. There are the same three sizes but now the "cloak" level of the mines is received automatically and is applied to all existing mines.


I tried a similar feature in a different mod and it did not work. The ability description on existing vehicles was correct, but did not match the reality, which was the ability level when the vehicle was constructed. Upgrades to existing designs didn't work either, you had to create a whole new design to actually get the current ability level. Once you did that I think you could just retrofit existing vehicles to get the bonus, however that's not an option with mines.

Anyway, if you haven't already, I recommend testing by having enemy ships scan for the mines.


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cryptc
Space Emperor


Joined: May 17, 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to see update on Balance Mod coming along Smile

May I ask, is the Nova Mod scrapped permanently? or just still on hold?


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll run a test for the mines. If it doesn't work not a big deal will just take it out. I actually came pretty close to dropping all unit levels. It adds more micromanagement for vehicle design without any strategic depth since you can't upgrade existing units.

Version 1.20 will be the last plus one or two small updates for bugs and tweaks. I still want to do Nova and at this point it's just a stretch from the Balance mod.


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind dropping unit levels. It always bothered me that leveling up a unit made it bigger, which meant that it took up more space in cargo, which actually made it worse (in a way)! Just like leveling up a space station hull increased its defense penalty, or leveling up just about any component increased its cost... Razz

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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DXM
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 20, 2012

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... What I'm hearing is that leveling up bothers you...? Wink

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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work on v1.20 is going well. Currently giving a quick update to the AI files to make them relatively functional for a beta version. I'm targeting this Friday but more likely Saturday to post the beta for download.

Once the beta is out, I'll make a few tweaks as required for the data files and work on getting the AI fully updated. Probably mid-March for the full version.


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