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Nomad Suggestions
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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject: Nomad Suggestions Reply with quote

I like the nomads and want to make them more of a "normal" option. Any chance they could get a "remote mining" monolith?
If you made it satellites only, you could limit it to 1 per satellite, or you could make it production proportioned similar to the present monoliths.

Any chance the Ultra-recycler Node could either be made smaller, less expensive, or have more abilities? I found it actually EASIER to start the pirates than the nomads, due to the pirates large, low maint, cloaked freighter that doesn't require one. I found the most efficient nomad "research platform" to be the regular space station, for combination research/maint. (Starting with 2 races close, I had real trouble trying to expand research due to maint. / organic production)

Expanding the Nomad RS to incorporate a recycler node, adding abilities to the "starbase" node (like bridge/crew/LS) or just making it smaller would be a plus IMHO.
I also feel the R-Team cannot do enough research, but I assume that has been tested enough to somehow fit with less research than a lab, per ship/base, more maint than a planetary facility and more time required to produce. (I suppose you could technically "produce" more ships than colonize planets, but I have never been wanting for planets of a decent size and the research ratio is more than 3 to 1 endgame, and 6 to 1 startgame.)


There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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Fyron
Galactic Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A monolith satellite remote mining component might be redundant. You can already use 3 satellites to mine all 3 resources at once. I would have to make it more expensive to produce, making it not much more efficient than just launching 3 regular satellite miners. As an aside, note that Monolith facilities are no more in 0.16.00.

In 0.16.00, Nomads no longer have access to the research outpost hull. They are not able to use the Research Labs, due to redundancy.

For a pirate or normal race, a research lab costs 334/56/0 to maintain, or 390 total resources, and produces 100 research points. For a nomad, a space station with 10 research teams and a SY on it costs 58/108/24 to maintain, or 190 total resources, and produces 50 research points. The nomad's base costs about the same amount of research / resource to maintain as the research outpost does, but you also get a space yard out of the deal. This is without adding anything to the extra few hundred kT of space though.

I should probably tie the civilian freighters to ship construction techs. Everyone else has to research small ship construction to get some transports, afterall. Or maybe a low tech freighter for nomads... Hmm...


Smarter than your average Texrak.


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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought only 1 of any unit could mine an area... I'll have to try more than one sat.

I didn't realize / forgot monoliths were being removed - that solves THAT problem.

Any chance the research could be sped up a bit? It is slow compared to people who can actually colonize. (Or am I just missing some vital point?)


There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think as nomads your culture wouldn't advance all that fast, hence why it's slow in the game.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Fyron
Galactic Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only one ship can mine a planet/asteroid at a time. However, with satellites, you can have 3, one mining each resource. 2 mineral mining sats will not function, however (only one will produce resources).

Smarter than your average Texrak.


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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tried the minimg sats - great tip, thanks!

I wanted to make a true "spacefaring" race (Based off of the Gundam colonists, actually) and this seemed a good way to do it. However, I can't research, and that sucks. Whay can't dedicated, linked labs, in a much more controlled environment (not even significant GRAVITY) research as well as on a planet? It's not like I send the research bases throughout the galaxy, trying to discuss through wormholes or something...

No chance of upping the max limit of components to 20, or adding a second, more expensive type to keep maintenance the same? Of course, maybe I'm paying for all the bonuses I can take...
(only 1 planet to worry about- no reproduction, no research, 75% planetary build, even reduced size (eco-friendly + subterranean ROCKS)


There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another reason to increase the nomad research limits on a single ship/base: Bases are large "score" items, and may cause an "evil Empire" condition.

I am quickly pulling ahead, score-wise, of the AI due to number of bases created. My current game has me at more at more than 100% above player 2, and I JUST started my real research efforts. This is ONLY due to bases - Even ships (satellites) do not give that much of a bonus.
I research Advanced Research II almost immediately, due to the doubling of research. 20 bases give 2000 RP at that level. I expect to be the evil empire with less than 20,000 RP (150-200 Bases), and "die under the onslaught of the righteous". Razz Crying or Very sad


There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that it is more economical and faster to build ships with research teams than bases. This is ofcourse because of the lower base cost of the ship. I only need a 220 kton vessal to make a resesarch ship with 10 research teams.

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im kind of lost, is there no way to resupply your ships or do all nomad ships haveto rely on solar panels?

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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Fyron
Galactic Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its solar panels or returning home.

Smarter than your average Texrak.


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Pax
Space Emperor


Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: U.S. Northeast

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Nomad-secific Bridge, Crew, and Life Support based supplies-generation? Even if it was set pretty low - say, 5-10/star/component - it'd be a help.

-- Sean

Like Xbox, Playstation, or Nintendo console games? Rent them online from Gamefly (and help me get free stuff) ...


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gah, playing nomad is hard. The time it takes to get enough research ships and mining satellites leaves you way behind the other players. Has someone tried using nomads in a PBW game? Can they compete with ordinary races?
Granted that this was my first attempt at playing as nomads. Ill restart and see if I cant get my empire up and running faster. Getting large enough hull sizes is a problem because of the low reseach increase you get.
Im currently useing 0.15.00. I couldn't get solar sail to work, it simply didnt give me any extra movement. I also couldn't find the reseach team component when I tried playing magic and organic races. The magic races monsters(fighters) dont have the same small supply mounts which physical races has,.


"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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Fyron
Galactic Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solar sails do not provide bonus movement. They provide the same type of movement as normal engines, in lesser amounts. Their advantage is the lack of supply usage. Note that your ship still needs at least one reactor, or else SE4 will say it is out of supplies and relegate it to only 1 movement point.

Nomads are meant to be hard, as in the original Pirates and Nomads Mod. They tend to work better in MP games where they can act as merchants, selling almost maintenance free ships for new techs and such. Definitely not a warmonger race.

I do not see any problem with magic race fighter reactor mounts. They are present for normal races and nomads.

I might add a 25% supply use reducing engine mount for nomads. Combined with the supply reducing racial trait, this gives either a 50% or a 44% reduction in engine supply use, depending on how they stack. What do you think?


Smarter than your average Texrak.


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Fulgrymm
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 02, 2005
Location: Backwater Industrial City

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they stack to be 50%, because I figured out that maintenance stacks that way. In the Star Wars Rebellion mod, the Imperial Shipyard hull has an inherint 50% maint. reduction, and when I equip my design with a maintenance droid that also reduces by 50%, I get 0 maint. I can literally have hundreds of Kuat Shipyards in orbit pumping fleets of gigantic proportions. I built a fleet of 600 ISDs in two turns. My computer actually lagged moving that fleet around the universe.

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Fyron
Galactic Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but that is not a racial trait. Smile

Smarter than your average Texrak.


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't you add a mini ringworld or something for nomads. This would be placed around stars. It can only hold 2 facilities. Resupply and spaceyard. This way nomads could claim systems. This would keep the comp from colonising them.
Also, it takes 3 years for me to build a space station in a new system with the small 100kton space yards, its abit to long IMO.


"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would the nomads colonize their mini-ringworlds, though? They'd need colony modules, which could also be used to colonize regular planets... Confused

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doh, I didn't think of that. But couldn't you give the nomad trait such a large negative on the amount of buildings they can have that a ringworld would be the only thing with enough buildings to be useful for nomads. Although I guess if anyone would conquer it would become a problem Sad

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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Fyron
Galactic Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nomads colonizing planets and getting 0 space still allows them to colonize the planets, preventing others from doing so and preventing remote mining, their lifeblood.

I am contemplating making Nomad remote miners a bit more efficacious. Not that practically free generation is bad, but yeah. Wink


Smarter than your average Texrak.


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think the resource gathering is the biggest problem. The problem is their horrible slow expansion rate. The nomads needs a more efficient spaceyard or a smaller spacestation with half the space and construction cost. With the 100kton construction yard component it takes 3 years with the zero gravity trait to build a space station with a shipyard compared to 1.5-2 years to build a planetary shipyard after establishing a colony.
Their range in early game is also to short. They need to be able to be able to launch satellites one system away from their homeworld to compete with other races IMO.
Another issue I have is with the 10 research component limit on ships. Why o why does it excist? It takes 3 turns to build a ship which generates 50 RP(5*10). Compared to one turn to build a research facility which generates 500 RP.

Editet and added some text to make the post understandable


"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


Last edited by The_Draf on Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:00 am; edited 2 times in total


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Pax
Space Emperor


Joined: Dec 30, 2005
Location: U.S. Northeast

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shipyard speed is a telling point, actually. Nomads, being not rooted to any one planet per se, should still be able to compete with non-nomad races in terms of building ships, units, and whatnot.

-- Sean

Like Xbox, Playstation, or Nintendo console games? Rent them online from Gamefly (and help me get free stuff) ...


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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO competing in ship construction is not the biggest problem, thats just at matter of building more bases. But building spacestations in new systems takes to long.

This is what I consider the best traits and abilities with Nomads.

Physical Race: (0) Gains access to the Physics Technology Tree. This represents the "normal" SE4 race type.
Advanced Power Conservation: (750) Supply usage by all space vehicles is reduced by 25%.
Trans-dimensional: (1500) Trans-dimensional beings are able to fold the fabric of space with their minds, resulting in their space vehicles gaining 1 extra movement point.
Zero Gravity Engineers: (1000) Ship/Base Space Yards produce at 125% of their normal rate.
Another trait that I haven't test but which is probably very good is the trait that reduces your spaceyards to size.
The trait that gives your fighter a combat bonus. Fighters are king in this version of Adamant and with fighter bonus trait you will rule the skies! DEATH FROM ABOVE! Sorry couldn't resist.
Organics bonus is also very important because your research ships, bases and units a lot of it. Radioactives is the least needed resource. Research bonus is also handy but very expensive.


"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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Praetorian_Dust
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 28, 2006
Location: Texas, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if building space stations in new systems is ssssoooooo bad, why not make bases moveable, such as I am in my in dev mod Confused ??

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The_Draf
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 16, 2006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errr, you can not construct moveable bases in Adamant. The problem is solved when you can construct a ship big enough to fit 400kton construction module. But that is so late into the game that it does not matter anymore.

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomico


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Praetorian_Dust
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 28, 2006
Location: Texas, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a REAL "Base" a ship that LOOKS like a base but moves one sector a turn say a "space station" has a max of 10 engines and 10 engines needed for one sector movement. Its the same as a base ship only its the actual ones, then unlimited supplies doesn't work without a quantum generator of some kind. Works fine the way i tested it.

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