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Ship Capture Teniques

 
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exelsiar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 14, 2007
Location: Fleet, England, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:47 am    Post subject: Ship Capture Teniques Reply with quote

Anyone any good with ship capture? ive been toying with a lill fleet of capture frigates on BM, maxed speed, set to damage till no engines, then equiped with torpedos.. they just annilated the enemys.. so i tryed something some what more low yield, same again, im now just researching engine damaging weapons, but am out of enemys to experiment with.
anyone got any advice? cheers?


Grand Lord Exelsiar of the Azra-Dun Commonwealth, at your service


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Emperor_Invisible
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 25, 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never played around with ship capture, so I wont be much help. But I do have a question with that, if you capture a ship that has the racial tech on it and when you analyze do you get the tech if its successful? If I remember right though you only get on tech or so with that.

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exelsiar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 14, 2007
Location: Fleet, England, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im pretty sure its 1 tech level per component, but racial and unique tech is excluded unless you already have access to it, i could easily be wrong tho

Grand Lord Exelsiar of the Azra-Dun Commonwealth, at your service


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Shrike
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2006

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, you can only obtain racial techs when an empire surrenders to you. You can acquire racial and ruin tech levels of a racial or ruin technology you also have, so there analyzing captured ships could help out.

If you want to capture ships, you should indeed make them fast, rugged and capable of bringing down enemy shields, maybe also destroying engines. Offensive weaponry tends to make capturing attempts futile. Toss in some shields, point defence cannons and ECM and you're good to go.


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exelsiar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 14, 2007
Location: Fleet, England, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well my latest design fits that bill, plenty of organic armour, shield depleaters and generator killers along with engine destroyers with max speed ^_^

Grand Lord Exelsiar of the Azra-Dun Commonwealth, at your service


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shrike wrote:
As far as I know, you can only obtain racial techs when an empire surrenders to you. You can acquire racial and ruin tech levels of a racial or ruin technology you also have, so there analyzing captured ships could help out.

If you want to capture ships, you should indeed make them fast, rugged and capable of bringing down enemy shields, maybe also destroying engines. Offensive weaponry tends to make capturing attempts futile. Toss in some shields, point defence cannons and ECM and you're good to go.


You cannot obtain racial techs from a conquered (or surrendered) enemy unless you have the same racial trait. Example: if an Organic race surrenders to a Crystalline race, the latter does not get access to the Organic tech tree. The best you can do is obtain access to any surrendered ships the vanquished enemy has left -- usually not many if they're feeling like surrendering. Worse, whatever ships you obtain are essentially un-repairable if their racial techs get damaged, and you can't refit them.

In the above scenario, if you were also an Organic race, you'd get access to any Organic techs your former foe had that you didn't have. No more, no less.

I've petitioned Kwok to alter this behavior, but thus far there isn't enough support from the community to push for the alteration. It's not that people seem against it, it's that there just don't seem to be that many people pushing for it.


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Emperor_Invisible
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 25, 2009

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how many people would be needed for that to happen?

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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not something I would do in BM.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By which I'm assuming you mean it's fair game in the Nova mod?

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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, we'll see. I'd have to come up with a system that I'm happy with. Perhaps some racial technologies might be available via alternate tech requirements etc.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Shoe
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 13, 2009

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've met good success in the early game with an engine destroyer, boarding pod, shield attack weapon design in the early game. The rest goes to armor and speed. It works particularly well if you obtain shield imploders.

If you fiddle with the engage distances on the strategy, you even have good chances of capturing colony ships. Otherwise...kamikaze! kaboom!

You don't want to use more than one ionic disperser, and even teching it up might be a bad idea. You want to slow down the enemy ship, not render it incapable of movement. Destroying all the engines makes it hard to get the captured ship to a space yard for disassembly and denies you engine techs.

I mostly try to pick off isolated enemy ships. I avoid missile designs- I don't even put on PD, boarding ships are too badly outmatched by missiles and you need lots of hit points to survive against normal targets. Still, mixing one or two boarding ships in a battle fleet can work well. The chaos of fleet combat works in favor of boarding, especially if your battle-line is long range and the enemy is trying to close.

Boarding fleets are a bad idea though, owing to fiddliness on the part of the boarding AI. It doesn't seem to know whether troops have been launched at a target or not, so all your boarding ships will tend to attack the same enemy.

I've also toyed with boarding-capable explorer ships off and on. You can't afford enough armor+combat sensors+weapons+supplies to do a proper job of it, but you can sometimes get fortunate results if your scout blunders onto a colony ship or support/scout ship. You can also strip a captured ship for supplies to continue your explorations, then destroy it.

I'll note all my experiences have been in BM.


Person(s) denying the existence of killer robots may be killer robots themselves.


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Ender
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 18, 2008

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
Perhaps some racial technologies might be available via alternate tech requirements etc.


This is a great idea! I already imagine that racial techs could exclude certain fields from researching and vice versa, so racial techs would always be trade off. With proper balancing there would be diversity among players and it could be done without traits! Players could choose whether go for racial techs not at the start of a game but playing it depending on circumstances. However, it will be hard to balance...


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that idea, Ender... I guess the main issue might be what happens when someone gifts you some tech that's "incompatible" with your own, or someone with such tech surrenders to you, or you just happen to research it without knowing it's incompatible?

For instance, suppose you have Organic Mesh Armor requiring Genomics but precluded by research into Crystallurgy, and Crystal Lattice Armor being the opposite (gained by Crystallurgy, precluded by Genomics, what happens if you have Genomics tech and suddenly gain Crystallurgy? Then you'll lose your Organic Mesh Armor, but you won't gain the Crystal Lattice Armor, because neither requirement is fulfilled!

UNLESS... there were "crossover" items which required BOTH techs! Very Happy Then when you get the second tech, sure, you can't build the first anymore, but you can build something even better...


That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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Shrike
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I favor the idea where racial traits allow you to get farther along some branch of a basic technology. So thereby I mean that anyone can research the basic techs, but the new technologies becoming available may be a bonus technology branch in case one's chosen such trait at game start.
Giving such advanced or branched technologies to someone without the required racial trait would hopefully be handled in the same way it's handled now with the racial technologies. Something could be done for ruin tech.

I liked how Bearclaw handled this in the Dark Nova mod for SEIV, dunno whether or how he did it in SEV.


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Ender
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 18, 2008

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIR, Bearclaw handled it the same way in SE5 Dark Nova. Hm, pehaps he even did it the way I thought I had imagined Wink (eh, those memory tricks). This is different than what you describe, Ecolis. Researching some techs prevents you from having the whole tech fields, not just some components.
Shrike, the idea is that every player can choose whatever path he likes during the game, not at the start. What you suggest can be achieved without traits - traits are not necessary to have racial techs. Let's say everybody can research basic organic techs and basic crystalurgy techs (all being true racial techs, do not mistake them with racial trait techs) but advanced crystalurgy techs are available only for those players that have no level of basic organic techs. Furthermore researching advanced crystalurgy techs prevents you from having basic organic techs - you cannot even have them if gifted because they all are racial and you do not have them in your tech tree anymore. It's easily achievable as anybody can see following my racial colonization idea. I do not remember for sure but perhaps Bearclaw did it just this way.


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happens if you are at 99% research of both Organic and Crystalline techs, and complete them both on the same turn? What determines which one you get?

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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Ender
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 18, 2008

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to my observations you will get the first one from TechAreas.txt
This is the reason why racial colonization techs default to Rock Colonization in all tech games when there is no auxilliary tech.


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, nice, so it won't lock you out or give you both... Smile

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
I don't know, we'll see. I'd have to come up with a system that I'm happy with. Perhaps some racial technologies might be available via alternate tech requirements etc.


If I remember right, the primary objection most people have to allowing racial techs to non-racial-tech races is that tech trading can completely imbalance an early game. Am I remembering right?


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Lorq13
Space Emperor


Joined: Oct 03, 2007

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ekolis wrote:

UNLESS... there were "crossover" items which required BOTH techs! you can build something even better...


This would be very interesting in high-tech games.

I had thought a good way to avoid trading racial techs and unbalancing the game early on would be to give a high cost to a requisite tech that cannot be traded, but can be researched that the trait gives you. Then later in the game you could get racial traits, but it would be at a large research cost or though another empire "joining" yours. It would also be good if someone actually spent racial points on a racial tech area get a discounted research cost to advance in that area.


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Ender
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 18, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ender wrote:

This is the reason why racial colonization techs default to Rock Colonization in all tech games when there is no auxilliary tech.


Hm, it looks like the idea of racial techs without racial traits needs racial traits, after all. They are needed in all tech games and would give access to auxilliary racial trait techs that would prevent all players from defaulting to the same set of techs.


prisoner881 wrote:
If I remember right, the primary objection most people have to allowing racial techs to non-racial-tech races is that tech trading can completely imbalance an early game.


This is true only if you just abandon racial traits without changing tech tree. With proper tech tree you have to be really careful what you research and what you exchange if you want to advance deep into some racial branch. Racial techs should always be a trade off.


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exelsiar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 14, 2007
Location: Fleet, England, UK

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shoe wrote:
If you fiddle with the engage distances on the strategy, you even have good chances of capturing colony ships. Otherwise...kamikaze! kaboom!


ahh very handy, cheers much, i'd gotten a working design (working in simulator atleast) but hadnt thought about kamikaze's, will have to do something about that now.


Grand Lord Exelsiar of the Azra-Dun Commonwealth, at your service


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often pair repair ships with my capture vessels. Just so I can use them after I'm done mashing them up. That way I can go crazy with special damage weapons and not worry about how much damage I do. that and it's good for repairing the capture pods.

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Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else

PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see some good advice, but I disagree with one thing: the high speed. You only need to be fast enough to get the boarding pod to launch. When the pod is in transit, high speed will be counter-productive since your ship will often "chase" the enemy.

Boarding ships do best in small engagements. Warp Point ambush can work well. It's almost mandatory to have repair vessels available. Always check the forecast before analysis. Better to keep a ship if it won't yield any tech.

Capping colony ships can get citizens who breathe extra atmospheres, if you need them.

Capping doesn't pay off in the tech race. It's fun, but it won't pay back what's invested - at least not for a very, very long time. Realistically, it's no good as a primary strategy. One can't even consider it in large-scale operations, offensive or defensive.


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's an indespensible tool in Junkyard Mod. ('cause you can't research)

I've found organic races to be the best at this. they have organic armor and a special weapon that slows enemy ships to make capture easier.

As for the question earlier about orders... ships WILL ceasefire once they realize the engines are gone(assuming you set them to no engines). BUT, especially if you use Torpedos, if they're in the process of firing already, it's too late. Part of why I prefer to use "weapons gone" instead of "engines gone" a bit more of a safety net there.


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