Intel Project Costs

CaptainKwok · Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: Intel Project Costs

These are the adjusted intel costs for v1.07 - comment on items you think cost too much or too little.

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Sabotage - Ships & Fleets:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_DAMAGE - 2000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_LOSE_MOVEMENT - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_LOSE_SUPPLIES - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_REBELS - 10000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_EXPERIENCE_CHANGE - 2000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_CARGO_DAMAGE - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_ORDERS_CHANGE - 1000

Sabotage - Planets & Colonies:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_CONDITIONS_CHANGE - 5000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_VALUE_CHANGE - 5000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_CHANGE - 5000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_HAPPINESS_CHANGE - 5000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_RIOT - 20000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_REBEL - 50000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_CARGO_DAMAGE - 2000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_PLAGUE_CREATED - 10000

Sabotage - Empire Wide:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POINTS_CHANGE - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POINTS_STEAL - 2000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_RESEARCH_STEAL - 5000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_RESEARCH_PROJECT_DELETE - 5000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_INTEL_PROJECT_DELETE - 2000

Sabotage - Political:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_DISRUPT_TRADE - 20000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_PREVENT_MESSAGES - 5000

Espionage - Ships & Fleets:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_CONCENTRATIONS - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_CONSTRUCTION_INFORMATION - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_DESIGNS_STEAL - 2000

Espionage - Planets & Colonies:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_INFORMATION - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_LOCATIONS - 1000

Espionage - Empire Wide:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_SYSTEM_INFORMATION - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_INFORMATION - 3000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_UNIT_DESIGNS_INFORMATION - 1000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_TECH_REPORTS - 2000

Espionage - Political:
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_INTERCEPT_MESSAGE - 2000
INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_TREATY_INFORMATION - 2000

Dvoongar · Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:10 am Post subject:

I think INTEL_EVENT_ID_SHIP_ORDERS_CHANGE - 1000 is low. 2000 maybe?

INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_PLAGUE_CREATED - 10000 is cheaper than INTEL_EVENT_ID_PLANET_POPULATION_RIOT - 20000, This seems backwards. It's easy to get people to riot, and plagues can be pretty bad if you're not prepared.

INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_DISRUPT_TRADE - 20000 could cost less. That's a lot to pay, since the impact will often be small. And I don't think it would be that much more difficult than other projects either.

INTEL_EVENT_ID_EMPIRE_POLITICS_TREATY_INFORMATION - 2000 payoffwise, could go 3000; but it shouldn't be terribly difficult so 2000 makes sense as well.

Them's my opinions.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 2:12 am Post subject:

It takes a long time to build up a high trade percentage - up to 3 years for 30%. That's a big loss in overall resource revenue if it gets knocked down to 0. Much more than stealing or damaging resources through other means.

Dvoongar · Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:13 am Post subject:

Sorry - my mistake. I thought it just ripped you off for a turn's worth of trade.

I had that happen to me once, but I was so rich at the time I ignored it.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:49 am Post subject:

I do agree about the plague cost though - it's much harder for the AI to deal with as well.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:

I did forget to make any cost changes for v1.07 or v1.08, but are players finding the new system too leaky before I go and modify them?

Dvoongar · Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:46 am Post subject:

It takes a little getting used to. When you fail, you don't know if it's because of defense or because you just missed. You have to try again (or cheat via the comparisons) a few times to get a feel for what you're up against.

I wouldn't say too leaky - just different. The leakiness is a big help when you get ganged up on, but you'll still suffer. Seems about right for the level of abstraction involved. And the new costs will help.

Has it been reported yet that the sab project breaking up your crew actually makes them "Legendary"? I could find nothing at SE Universe and tried for a few hours to make a report, but the 56k upload time was too long for the present state of that site. And it's not going to be that high a priority, so I decided to wait. It's a funny bug, and I kinda like it.

Even came up with an explanation: once it gets out that the ship's crew is that well known among the enemy, the prestige of the ship would be so high that the captain would have his pick of any officers in the fleet. Can you say "Enterprise"?

Balancewise, you don't want to reduce the cost of this project to compensate for the bug because that would just make it happen more frequently. I don't know your policy on adapting the mod to bugs, but an increase might be temporarily in order. The side doing it's going to get ripped off no matter what, but only the rich (in intel points) would suffer if the price was high enough.

albi_joe · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 19, 2005 Location: USA

Hm... Can a different message be displayed for "missed" instead of "defended against"?

I never use offensive intel, so I'm not smart on the options.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject:

Here are a few more changes I made to specific intel projects:

Steal Research:
Provides a range of research points in the selected tech area. It's somewhat scaled to the cost of the tech area. Previously, you get at least half the points in the chosen tech area and perhaps more if you were several levels behind.

Disrupt Research Project:
Removes some of the target Empire's accumulated research in a tech area. Before it would always subtract 5000 points.

Disrupt Intel Project:
Removes some of the target Empire's intel attack points against another target. Before it would remove all the attack points.

Planet Rebel:
Two changes here. The target Empire's planet will be transferred to the source Empire rather than spawn a new empire. Second, the planet will only rebel if it is extremely unhappy. I still might add a modifier as well that would factor in the population present.

BlueTemplar · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 27, 2007

Is it still scaled to the difference in levels?

shael · Space Emperor Joined: Jun 10, 2007

would it be more logical that steal tech is in espionage empire wide rather than sabotage, as you actually gain info not destoy anything ?

also it should be more expencive if other player has more in reasearch than intel, the intel might get along nice just stealing tech from target.

and anyways it should be much more difficult to get tech to your usage than just burn down a lab or so.

BlueTemplar · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 27, 2007

No, Espionage only gets you information, while Sabotage is more agressive: it destroys and steals. Research points are a ressource like the others.

Intel is the (only?) counter against the research-heavy empires. On the contrary it should be easier to steal from an empire that has lots of technologies lying around.

aegisx · Space Emperor Joined: May 07, 2007

Perhaps the defensive calculations should take empire size into account. The larger the empire, the more difficult it is to protect.

BlueTemplar · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 27, 2007

(EDIT: Umm, nevermind, I only missed the intel reports.)

I had a funny report come to me this turn:
Our intelligence network has caused widespread damage to the [%TargetEmpireName%]'s economy. We estimate that they have lost -3969 minerals, [%OrganicsAmount%] organics, and [%RadioactivesAmount%] radioactives, sire.

So my spies have actually created minerals for the enemy empire? Smile

I think it's caused by the lines you added:
// If the selected amount is greater than what they have, subtract a bit less
if (min_amt > max_min_amt) then
set min_amt := max_min_amt - Sys_Get_Random_Long(1000, 5000)
endif
if (org_amt > max_org_amt) then
set org_amt := max_org_amt - Sys_Get_Random_Long(1000, 5000)
endif
if (rad_amt > max_rad_amt) then
set rad_amt := max_rad_amt - Sys_Get_Random_Long(1000, 5000)
endif

call Sys_Change_Empire_Points(trg_plr, -min_amt, -org_amt, -rad_amt)

It should probably be:
if (min_amt > max_min_amt) then
set min_amt := min_amt - Sys_Get_Random_Long(1000, 5000)
endif
if (org_amt > max_org_amt) then
set org_amt := org_amt - Sys_Get_Random_Long(1000, 5000)
endif
if (rad_amt > max_rad_amt) then
set rad_amt := rad_amt - Sys_Get_Random_Long(1000, 5000)
endif

Grendelio · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Location: Spain

I think that intel is too leaky. In my last 3 game turns, I have a huge empire in war with a lot of people. I decide to intel attack 5 enemy players at the same time, investing an average 80K intel points/turn - this means an average 16K intel points/player.

I have sabotage - ships and fleets at lvl 3. Don´t know how many intel my enemies have.

I obtained an average 20-25 sabotages each turn. This means 4-5 successful attacks/enemy.

Problem is that I don´t know how many intel points they have for defence, but they aren´t defenceless... In any case, I have the feeling that I´m getting too many successful intel projects.

Maybe current formula benefits large empires?

CaptainKwok · Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:16 am Post subject:

It's actually the generally cheap costs for the projects themselves that allows too many to be run each turn.

I would like to add some sort of modifier that reduces the impact of a large Empire's defense contribution since you'd expect they'd have a harder time to defend.

BlueTemplar · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 27, 2007

On the contrary, current formula benefits empires with less intel. Before, against an empire with 0 intel, you had a 100% sucess rate. Now you can have as low as a 50% sucess rate per project. On the other hand, against a bigger empire that has the same number of defense points as you have of attack points, you'll get a 22-29% sucess rate per project, while before it was 0%.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:12 am Post subject:

I'd like to have the intel set where minor intel projects typically have the same success rate for a large or small empire.