Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:01 am Post subject: Dvoongar's Doctrines
I'm making what I prefer to call "combat doctrines" for the A.I. This will only apply to behavior in combat.
This isn't what I'd call a mod by itself. The file's part of a mod, or part of a shipset. This is intended to be used by shipset makers and modders to install with their packages. I intend to develop a total of 3 or 4 basic doctrine packages, so different empires can use different tactics in the same game. I'm about 25% done testing this one, so there may be some serious defects yet to be found.
If all goes well, I think a more comprehensive series could be created with a doctrine ('strategy') for each type of ship which can be built. This will require cooperation from the modders who would enable the A.I. to use them.
For now, this is what I have. The simple test is just to plug it in and see if the ships fight better. A better test is to assign my Doctrines to half the AI empires in a game, and leave the rest without them. If I've done well, the difference should show clearly. I usually slow time down to 1/4 if there's anything interesting happening in a battle - I don't know about everyone else.
What to expect:
Well, common sense tactics for the most part. I did get a little unorthodox with a couple of things, but they shouldn't show up very often. These doctrines have little or no effect on duels between two ships. The larger the battle, the more you'll see a difference. If you install these doctrines for your own fleet (will happen if you just replace Default_AI_Strategies) you shouldn't have to supervise your ships too closely. You'll also be able to see exactly what I've done, and tinker with it yourself.
More specifically, fire will be spread over more enemies rather than everyone picking on the closest target. Fighters, drones, kamikazes, and troop transports will frequently be recognized and get special treatment. Boarding ships will do a better job also, although still not as smart as a very dumb human.
While I'm shooting for something the modders will snap up, I'd like to hear from everyone who tries this.
How to install: If you already know what you're doing, just do your thing. For the rest, here's how I went about it. In the Empires folder of the mod your using (or the main Empires folder if you're not using a mod) there's a folder named "Default". Open it and rename Default_AI_Strategies to Original_Default_AI_Strategies. Then copy the DD090_Default_AI_Strategies file into the folder and rename it, deleting the DD090 part so the name exactly matches the old name of the original file. Anyone who knows a better way is free to share. Shipsets have a file called "AI Main" with a line in it telling which AI strategies file is to be used with the shipset. This can be used to keep all AI's from using the same strategies file, if anyone wants to go that route.
There's also a "Strategies" file in the "Data" folder. In many cases it doesn't need to be changed, but with some mods this will also need to be replaced. Just use the same method here. Later posts discuss this.
Okay, there's a snag. I overlooked the fact that I need some way to get the file to you people. I don't have a website to host it on, but I can email it as an attachment - it's only 75 or 78 k, I forget which. For now, PM me or email me (dstew8@excite.com). Somebody'll hopefully set me straight on how these things work.
Edit: I didn't actually overlook it - bad choice of term. I didn't anticipate any problems, and there are obstacles.
Edit: Noob content removed. And Dvoongar's Doctrines are available attached to later posts in this thread.
Last edited by Dvoongar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:29 am; edited 2 times in total Back to top
You can upload attachements to the site, by filling out the Filename and Filecomment boxes below your post-typing box. That keeps you from having te e-mail it.
Joined: Feb 12, 2007 Location: On Giant dreadnaught preparing to glass phong homeworld...
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject:
This will be great if it actually works...
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Maybee the players own AI should be untouched, because they have the ability to control their own ships... Back to top
If those strategies are better, I prefer having them installed by default, so that I don't have to rewrite them every time : players don't have control of their ships in multiplayer games... Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject:
Frats wrote:
You can upload attachements to the site, by filling out the Filename and Filecomment boxes below your post-typing box. That keeps you from having te e-mail it.
Good luck with the strategies
That's what I thought, but it says it won't accept a file with the extension "txt" for some reason. And the "Allowed Extensions and Sizes" link isn't working for me, so I can't find out the problem.
I also tried to submit it as a download, but it says there that a file link is required. I have no links.
While I'm here, I'll mention one more feature. Some ships will refuse to fire on unarmed civilian populations of planets. Captains can be funny that way. Not all, so your planets are never safe from glassing! This is intentional, and none should refuse to attack weapon platforms - let me know if they do.
Edit: recommendation for modders (I want to get this in before I forget): if you decide to use this in a mod, you'll want to mix up the strategies used by different ship designs a little bit. Not everyone should use "optimal range". "Point Blank" is the oddball, and should be used sparingly.
My biggest concern is with the fighters. They may at times stay just outside of firing range. I knew the risk would be there, and I haven't tested them under all circumstances. Until more testing is done, I can't say it's ready for implementation on a permanent basis. Back to top
Joined: Feb 12, 2007 Location: On Giant dreadnaught preparing to glass phong homeworld...
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject:
BlueTemplar wrote:
If those strategies are better, I prefer having them installed by default, so that I don't have to rewrite them every time : players don't have control of their ships in multiplayer games...
Do you manage to do all this with the in-game strategy customisation, or do you make some other changes that we won't be a ble to modify in-game? Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject:
BlueTemplar wrote:
Do you manage to do all this with the in-game strategy customisation, or do you make some other changes that we won't be a ble to modify in-game?
You'd be able to modify strategies for your own fleet in game, but not for the others.
If I get around to making a supplement with the "Default_AI_WarpTransitTypes" file, these changes will not be available for in-game modification at all. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:11 am Post subject:
Trying again. This is a TUGzip archive, and 7zip should open it also.
All I need's a snappy ad slogan. "Once you've had Dvoongar's you'll never go back" would be fine if I could only make it rhyme.
If this thing doesn't work for any reason let me know. I'll do what I can.
And don't be shy with the reviews. I wanna know what you guys really think.
And there's another way to mix'n match. If you use a saved empire file, you'll get the settings that empire had in effect when it was saved. So you can go DD player vs. stock AI, or stock player vs. DD AI (I dare ya - okay I don't. But I'd like to).
Edit: DD 0.90 is no longer here. Newer version available in later post. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Last edited by Dvoongar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: More News
This file I've made can be extracted by the wizard in WinXP. I tested it myself on my laptop. Win98 & 95, as I recall, need a utility program to do it, but if you have WinXP you shouldn't need 7zip or TUGzip or anything.
And drones won't use the strategies much without modifications to another file. Kwok says he's going to include these changes in Balance Mod 1.07. See http://www.spaceempires5.com/en-US/node/3196 for details if you want to do it yourself. Read at least as far as jdunson's post about changing the number 12. It's not so hard, but neither is waiting for 1.07.
To those helping to test my doctrines: first off, thanks! And if you observe anything stupid, please observe the circumstances as well. Is the ship armed, what's its strategy and if it's in a task force what TF strat it's under. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 11:18 am Post subject:
[stuff used to be here]
I'm encountering insubordinate ships in TF's. This is due to laziness. When ships of different types are lumped into the same TF, it can make a huge difference in their behavior. I had a TF set to "attack planet" retreat immediately because the flagship was set to "don't get hurt". Unfortunately, we need to make separate TF's for these ships, or in the case of combat ships, assign them as escorts or pickets (warning: they can be extremely aggressive in these roles - they don't simply protect their charges as one might expect).
I'm working on gaining a better understanding of the TF strats and how they interact with ship strats. Progress is slow, and it turns out I know less than I used to think I knew.
I half expected some comments by now, but then I got it into perspective. Folks are probably expecting to be impressed, and that's not what this is about. You won't see much brilliance; it's more about not seeing outright stupidity. Once in a great while, they'll actually do something smart. I was proud of how the AI defended against one of my attacks today - that's the downside to making them smarter: they're not quite so easy to bully around!
Edit: Noob content and discussion of obsolete issues removed.
Last edited by Dvoongar on Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:22 am Post subject:
Bad news for stock! I've learned how to keep tabs on the AI empires, and it's not a pretty picture.
Stock units and ships of all types - every last one of 'em - when built by the AI are set to use "optimal range". Nothing else, ever. Only the humans can benefit from using my doctrines in a non-modded game. There is no way to make a single strat that is good, or even sufficient for everything.
I'm thinking the only way the AI can even invade a planet is by use of TF's since even their troop ships use "optimal range". And if changes are made to allow (the human's) drones to follow their assigned strats, the AI drones should refuse to ram any targets at all!
Now I intended from the first that my doctrines should be used with mods, but I had hoped that stock players would be able to benefit as well. I see now that the benefits for them will be minimal.
I may be adding a troop strat also. Retreat isn't an option for troops, and it needs to be available for ships, so there's no good way to make a blanket strat for both.
I need to find out which files are used by the AI to assign strats to ships. I don't really want to mess with these, since each of the major mods will probably be a special case; but it needs to be investigated when I get the chance.
I haven't yet found a reliable way around the "retreat when you have no targets" behavior.
On the plus side, my plans for variations on the doctrines are firming up. When the other things get sorted out, I intend to add 2 or 3 more; so there should be enough variety to keep things interesting. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: DD0.91 changelog
Here's the changelog so far for the next set of doctrines.
1. Max Range Strat changed to not target Colonies
2. Hostile seekers given lower priority. Several other "types" numbers changed.
3. Cap Planet Strat relocated "most damaged" to bottom of its list.
4. Fighters will prefer targets with Long Range weapons.
5. Drones don't break formation on core ship loss.
6. Changes to "retreat when" settings.
7. Cap Ship strat changed to prefer short-ranged targets, and bases over ships.
I'm waiting for the next patch so I'll know if the retreat change mentioned above results in problems. I plan to delete it either way. The changes to "retreat when" may prove insufficient since at this point I can't test them.
From what I can tell from watching, 10 km = 1 ls on the combat map. Anyone know better? It would be helpful to know just how big an area is included in 5 ls and 10 ls increments. Back to top
The SE.net downloads server was taken down for the last week of June because the site had exceeded it's bandwidth. It'll probably be re-instated when the site's server hits July 1st. Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:01 am Post subject:
Well Geokinkladze, if it still ain't workin', just drop me an email & I'll see that you get a copy.
From the lack of feedback & discussion, I begin to suspect half these guys are just using my doctrines to get an edge in multi-player games. I feel so used! Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: Are we cursed or something?
Got my 1.44 up and running, and I'm disappointed. First, the retreat when's aren't doing much. I think the ones set to retreat due to damage are working at least sometimes, but the retreat when outgunned is doing zero.
And I noticed another problem which arose from 1.37 change # 9. Without the Retreat when all Weapons Gone = TRUE in effect, they don't. Well, they do if the change comes about in battle, but ships which start a battle unarmed/out of ammo will charge straight ahead... I already reported the issue.
Now I've only got my observations from one night's play to go on, so I'm not going to assume this is always the case. What have you all seen going on? Are ships ever retreating from hopeless battles? Are they retreating based on damage thresholds?
I thought I had DD 0.91 all ready to rock & roll, but it may need serious revisions. I could base all retreat whens on damage, or I might have to change them all to retreat when all weapons gone just to cover that angle.
The future of semiunstupid combat is looking doubtful. I was tempted to just give up and tell everyone to go back to stock, but then I took another look at stock. Goodness! What are we going to do? Even if MM fixes the issue as I requested, it could be months before another patch. I daresay this is enough to drive me back to 1.35.
Oh well, at least it saves me another battle with zipping the file & getting it to post... Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:
I was waiting for the next BM myself, for a serious game. But I wanted to test drive DD 0.91 and was hoping it'd be ready to go, so I started a stocker.
Craziest thing I saw was when 2 of my CSM frigates were attacked by a sat layer. It launched the sats and charged my ff's! My ships moved to attack the sats with pd's, and happened to get off enough missiles on the way to take out the freighter. Since missiles won't target sats and they had to get close to use the pd's, I lost both ff's.
The mystery of why a sat layer would attack may be partially solved because this happened at a warp point in the enemy's system. The sat layer was probably en route when I parked my frigates there. One might still expect the ship to refuse to enter the hex, I suppose.
The plus side to unarmed ships becoming aggressive is that any fleets they head should also engage instead of running away. But it's too small a plus to make up for the out-and-out stupidity.
To restate the problem in case I wasn't clear: Ships which begin combat unarmed or out of ammo will move to attack. Ships which use up their ammo or get their weapons shot off will retreat.
The only solution that might correct this would be to set all ships to retreat when they have no weapons, but you only get one entry for when to retreat - the whole menu ends up being wasted.
The strats text can still contain the line "Retreat when all weapons gone = TRUE" and it will be ignored by 1.44. It doesn't hurt anything, but it doesn't function either. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: 0.92
This contains normal 0.92 and 0.92nlg. The nlg stand for 'no lost ground' and is intended for use with 1.44. Since the retreat when's didn't function before, using them to restore the retreat function to damaged ships will result in no net loss and enable players to enjoy the other benefits of 1.44.
Hopefully the problem will soon be patched and the normal 0.92 will be fit for use.
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: Looking for replies?
I just stumbled onto this discussion, so maybe people just aren't seeing it that much.
You've answered your own question though, when you mentioned that this can't help the AI's combat strategy due to them being limited to a single strat. I'm responding to compliment you on your diligent efforts to help out the game. Hopefully, MM will be doing something for the AI to allow them to use multiple strategies in the futhure. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:19 am Post subject:
Thanks glockgemini.
For now the best hope is with the mods. I'm currently testing the Doctrines in a stock game, and I've about had my fill.
The AI empires are too weak for me to gin up any good battles. Thought I had a good one coming last night: 50 mostly FF's vs 45 mostly Chrystal DD's - but alas the AI had run its fleet out of supplies (in their home system no less!) so it was a meaningless slaughter.
There remain only 2 micro empires I share systems with, the piddley Jraenar, and their enemies: the Romulans. I still have hopes of some good fights with the Rommies once I save up enough supplies to cross the void systems which separate us.
I think I'll give unnamed's a try. No point starting a BM 1.09 with 1.10 so close. And from what folks say, it's no pushover. Be nice to see how well the Doctrines mesh with some new AI designs, too. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: DIY upgrade
I took a look at what unnamed has done in the strats, so I recommend the following simple changes for stock players:
For Optimum Range strat set Capture Ships to 'TRUE' and the troop landing (forgot exact term) to 'TRUE'.
This should cure 2 of the problems the AI has using OpRange as the universal strat.
Balance Mod users shouldn't need to bother, but I don't really think it will do any harm, and I intend to include these in DD0.93. Not worth issuing a new set of doctrines over such a simple fix just now.
Again, unnamed gets credit for the idea - I get credit for appropriating it. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject:
I found another instance of the strats: in the Data folder of SEV is a txt file simply called "Strategies". In case it is used by the game, I'd recommend replacing this file with the doctrines also.
I don't think the file is used. If anyone can say either way, please let us know. Replacing too many files could get to seem like a chore. Back to top
I found another instance of the strats: in the Data folder of SEV is a txt file simply called "Strategies". In case it is used by the game, I'd recommend replacing this file with the doctrines also.
I don't think the file is used. If anyone can say either way, please let us know. Replacing too many files could get to seem like a chore.
It is used, I found out the hard way by not updating the strageties for new units. If you don't update/add the new units they'll just turn and run away since no pre-set strat was dictated.
If you didn't add any new units or ship designs then it will just be a duplicate of the stock file and doesn't need to be added to your mod. If you did add any new units or design types for ships, you'll want to add it into the data file and ensure its included in your mod. Back to top
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