This site is in archival mode. A replacement is being developed. In the meantime, please use the PBW2 Forums for community discussions. The replacement software for this site will use a unified account system with PBW2, and any newly created threads will carry over.
Welcome to Spaceempires.net
Login or Register

Search
Modules
· Content
· Downloads
· Forums
· Game Info
· Image Gallery
· Links
· Shipyards
· Topics
· Staff

User Info
· Welcome, Anonymous
Membership:
· New: Astorre
· New Today: 0
· New Yesterday: 0
· Overall: 3155

People Online:
· Visitors: 88
· Members: 0
· Total: 88

  

Spaceempires.net :: SEAW Mod discussion with SPOILERS :: View topic
Forum FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Usergroups :: Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in


SEAW Mod discussion with SPOILERS
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Spaceempires.net Forum Index -> SEV Modding Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:30 pm    Post subject: SEAW Mod discussion with SPOILERS Reply with quote

The Space Empires at War Mod has several surprises in store, particularly for those familiar with EAW. In this thread, any and all aspects of the mod are open for discussion, so if you prefer to discover things for yourself, you'll want to avoid this thread.

Instead, check out the non-spoiler thread:

http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopict-10149.html

The SEAW Mod itself can be obtained here:

http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/458723/SEAW098.7z

...or you can use the New Improved dl link:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ytmj4rbm7d9m6fb/SEAW_098b.7z

A small update has been issued:

https://www.mediafire.com/?6jrll3ynvperg55


Last edited by Zwo_Dvoongar on Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:51 am; edited 2 times in total


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: The Deal with Honchos Reply with quote

The Honcho units were intended to ride aboard starships and improve their performance. They don't work.

There is a feature "Abilities Added To Parent When In Cargo". So far, it appears this really only works for units in a Planet's cargo - not for units in a Ship's cargo. I have not found a way to get the game to respect the code as written. Further testing is in order, and reports of results are welcome.

Other than that, Honchos should not be used. The game does not enforce the limits on their construction, and the few abilities that actually work might enable a player to "cheat" and create super planets. Most of the time, they're just a waste.

Another thing I'd appreciate is reports on AI use of Honchos. I cut things back in the scripts, to prevent the AI from building many Honchos. It seems I may have cut them back too far for any to be built at all by the AI players. The main thing I'm curious about is my Honcho Pick-up scripting: I'd like to know if the AI ships will properly load up an Honcho once it is built. Anyhow, if AI Honchos are spotted, please note their location(s). Are they stuck on planets? Which ships pick them up? If the Honcho Unit Type can be made to operate properly sometime, it'd be good to know if the AI players are handling them as intended.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've recommended using non-Trekciv's for the first (practice) game or two. When it's time to choose and play as a Trekciv, here's the situation: Klingon, Hydran, Starfleet, and Romulan are tested and work well. Borg doesn't work. Gorn should work, but I haven't tested it enough.

Presently, there are only AIs for Starfleet and the Klingons. If you're going to let the AI have those two, that leaves Hydran, Romulan, and Gorn. This isn't ideal. The Hydrans and Romulans both have issues which I expect will not be pleasing to some players. The Romulans have to deal with their "early era" ships, and the Hydrans don't have much way around being very fighter heavy; that can mean headaches managing fighter construction and logistics. ...Which leave the Gorn as the only simple choice that allows both of the eligible AI Trekcivs to be in play.

Oh well, hopefully things will be improving before too much longer. I really was reluctant to release the mod before it was complete, but that could be a while.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(From t'other thread)
Artful_Bodger wrote:
I researched the stellar harnessing tech to max and a JPE Engine component appeared. I was not able to research JPE's directly.
Once I'd got to L3 of technobabble JPE research appeared, 1st level giving an l2 engine. I suspect you meant to gate JPE research requiring both Stellar harnessing & TBBle 3. Was it's early appearance an error?


In Balance Mod, Lv3 CT Engines unlock the JPs. In SEAW there is an additional requirement of Lv3 in Technobabble.

That's for the tech.

For the actual engines, things are just a little different. If you research enough Stellar Harnessing, you get a bonus level on the JP engine (component). What you got was the bonus level. The tech field was not unlocked, but the engine was available (at level one) for installation.

This was intended, actually, in order to encourage SH research. If it turns out unbalanced, I may need to add some additional requirement to get the Lv 1 JP engine.

------

One thing you'll soon discover is that the high-end engines have drawbacks. They don't pack as much supply, devoting more space to propulsion.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject: Current Gameplan Reply with quote

I'm mostly testing things right now, playing as Romulan. My next game I'll play Gorn, and see if any of their stuff isn't working right.

While testing, I'll get little or no work done on the AI's, most likely. I need to finish them, and fix the Borg techs. I'll probably hold off on completing the Borg AI until I've played a game as Borg. It helps to know what's what when plotting out the AI's research strategy.

I want to get all the AIs done, and get everything important up and working. Then down the road, upgrades will focus on the AI, while the base "rules" remain fixed.

---------------------

*** Bright spot!
I saw from the "enemy designs" report where Starfleet designed an Hybrid for a scout ship. There are hulls in the game which must be Hybridized, but I also included a super-small chance for AIs to just up'n design an Hybrid on one of the regular hulls. This is the first time I've seen one actually do it.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, one of the main purposes of releasing SEAW in an incomplete state was to allow others to help detect bugs.

This here won't be a great big spoiler, but it isn't a bug if you see a ship maxing out at some oddball top speed. Many ships in the game have combat speed penalties or bonuses. If you see a ship moving along at 10.2, for example, that's not a bug.

My test game as Romulans has paid off a little. I'll need to make adjustments to the Plasma Torpedoes, and one of their Legacy Hulls wasn't where it was supposed to be in the tech tree.

The Starfleet AI is going to need a couple of minor adjustments also. Overall I'm pleased with the outcome so far.

If any of you decide to try playing Romulan, there's something you may want to change in the "Components" file. Remember how the game isn't handling weapon graphics properly? Well, the big Plasma Torpedo is (usually) invisible in combat! I have a valid entry, "Torp 15". The combat engine just isn't using it for some reason.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone finishes their practice games, and would like to know what kind of bugs to watch for, you can let me know what kind of set-up you're planning for your "serious" game, and I can probably tell you where to watch.

I'm very annoyed with Starfleet's AI in my own game. I double-checked, and there's a 3 in 55 chance per turn for them to research Special Weapons when it becomes available. They're way behind schedule.

The idea was to give them a little different behavior there, from game to game. Some games they might research it right away, while in others they'd take a while. They've had the tech available for at least 8 years now, probably 11 or 12. Still nothing. I'll definitely be changing things.

I'm a little disappointed in the AI's placement of Interior Reinforcement components; they'd do more good if they were placed earlier. I doubt I can do much about it, unfortunately.

The hull mixing routines aren't doing exactly what I wanted, but they're close enough. I figured out one problem: when I wrote them, I failed to account for the lag time between designing a ship and getting it built. When a given hull is "wanted", it may get prioritized during the lag time, even though it's been used for one or more designs, and is being built. I probably won't be trying to fix that one any time soon. Hull variety is sufficient, or nearly so.

I might mention that it wouldn't be any major of disaster if someone decided to play Starfleet or Klingon. The only drawback would be the lack of that given AI in the game - you'd only have one Trekciv opponent. I think it'd be better to hold off playing one's favourite, but your game is your game, and I'm confident it'll be fairly fun any which way you choose.

It may be a while before I get after the chore of writing the rest of the scripts. I can't figure out how I want to do the Romulans. It'd take a lot of work, but I'd like to maybe work out a scheme wherein some games they'd breeze by and practically bypass the early era hulls, while in other games they'd go ahead and dig into them. Boy, that'd sure be a lot of work...


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I got an idea that should cure the issue of AIs designing units without weapons. It's tedious, and I don't plan to tackle it right now, but if I forget, someone remind me later, after the full mod's done.

If I assign an AI tag to all (appropriate) weapons, and follow that up with a requirement for that same tag on all applicable vehicle types, the AIs would still try to make bad designs, but the game itself would give them the hard rejection, as illegal! The AIs would have to keep trying.

With even more work, this could be followed up by altering the DesignCreation script to run a check following the present weapon install routine, looking for the tag "ability". If it's missing, some further attempt(s) could be made to install weapons.

That's a whale of a lot of work, but I don't see a way for it to fail, and the issue is one I find fairly annoying.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:25 am    Post subject: First Update Reply with quote

A few small improvements have been made.

https://www.mediafire.com/?6jrll3ynvperg55

Most important change is in the Starfleet AI. It will now research "Special Weapons", for sure.

Both Starfleet and Klingon AIs got a little twist on how they select hulls. The objective is to provide more variety. Future Trekciv AIs (Gorn, Romulan, Borg, Hydran) will employ a new hull selection scheme I came up with. This present one is barely satisfactory.

Then there are some game mechanics changes.

A minimum engine requirement was put in place on the small freighters.

The R-KE was not undermotored, as it should have been. Now it is.

Combat Sensor bonus too high - decreased it, and slightly increased ECM effectiveness.

Mine penalties too light - increasing.
Mine Warhead Damage is backward - min & max. FIXED.

Plasma Torpedoes were and are out-of-balance. There will be more fixes, but they've been partially corrected. The full correction would, I think, break savegames. This is a start.

Pseudoplasma Torpedoes have been improved. All pseudos are getting one more damage point, in hopes it'll help them register as threats more often. Their speed has been increased by one also, in order for them to get out in front of a volley.

The Type-R has been made visible. Final fix isn't done; rather it appears identical to the Type-G.

Due to hardcode bug, the "Fleet Training" ability gets applied all haywire. Fleet ratings shoot through the roof in very few turns. All values for "fleet training" are being reduced - on Facilities, VehicleSizes (hulls), and Components.

Description of WB+ changed to "Medium Cruiser". This is the SFC convention for most oversized CLs.

R-BH tech wasn't being unlocked correctly. It was available elsewhere.

Late R-SPA Hull research wasn't adding levels to the hull - fixed.

Starfleet Destroyer hull's "max level" corrected to match the maximum level of the tech.

Starfleet Academy's build restriction wasn't entered quite optimally. The game might - just might - actually enforce it now. If anyone tests this and it works, I'd like to know; I could then change the way the Starfleet AI builds these facilities.

---------

I'll post install instructions in the non-spoiler thread.

http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-75414.html#75414


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:36 am    Post subject: Who can help, and how, on hull variety Reply with quote

Not everyone will be able to help determine if the new scripts are doing a better job mixing hulls. Only those players who paid attention to the Klingon or Starfleet hullmix in their games will have a proper "before picture". The rest could only obtain an "after picture".

The improvement isn't expected to be very big, either. It will show up more in a fresh game, than it will in a game already in progress.

What went on was this: a new hull is researched and becomes available. The next time there's a design request for a ship sized in that neighborhood, that hull will show as "needed". If it is an high priority hull, it will be chosen for the design. Otherwise it might or might not.

Okay, that hull's used for a design. Until it is ordered and constructed, the situation with the AI doesn't change. All designs requesting a hull with a similar size will still see that hull as "needed" and use it. Only after the hull has been constructed will other hulls have a chance to be chosen.

This is how come, in my game, the Klingons went nuts with 3 or 4 K-F5 designs, and Starfleet cranked out 4 or 5 different Constitution-hulled designs. ...And it's the same thing every time they research a new hull, at least if it has any priority ranking at all.

That may not sound so bad. In a way, it isn't. But there are hulls going unused because of this. My game has featured only one Miranda-hulled ship the whole time. There have been zero designs employing Federation "normal" CLs or CAs. The Klingons have built no "normal" FFs or CAs. The K-D6 is woefully under-utilized.

So I tried to fix things. In my own game, turns are taking a while to play and process; I haven't been able to really evaluate. Here's what to watch for: more usage of the "normal" hulls (they tend to be lower priority), more usage of Miranda and D-6 hulls. Less of the consecutive strings of K-F5, K-D7, Constitution, and so on.

It won't take much for things to become good, for me to be satisfied. "If it's in the game, it's in the AI" - that's the thing. We expect to see plenty of Constitution-hulled designs from Starfleet, and plenty of D-7 and F-5 from the Klingons. Thing is: we expect to see at least a little of all the other hulls, and that hasn't been happening.

Also, the K-D7 isn't cheap, and the Constitution is flat-out expensive to build and operate. The economic impact on these AI players can't be pretty.

If this upgrade is getting the job done, I'd like to hear about it. I actually came up with a superior scheme, which I plan to use for the Gorn, Romulan, Borg, and Hydran AIs. I don't really care to take the time to go back and redo the two Trekcivs I've already finished.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's how players can help.

If you chance upon a Starfleet GSC, or a Klingon D-5V, please check to see if they have fighters aboard. I have scripted for all hybrids to load fighters (or drones, if appropriate), but I have yet to discover if the script actually works. I'm about to commence on the AI for the Hydrans, and they build mostly hybrids.

A list of weapons with the wrong "shot" graphics will need to be made at some time, so I can fix all of those.

A list of too-faint and too-loud sound effects would be helpful also, down the road. It isn't the highest priority, but I'd kind of like to fix those.

- - - - - - - -

From my own testing, I'm satisfied with the fix I made to the hullmixes. ...Or nearly satisfied. I'm seeing things pick up a little in my test game. The low priority hulls will, I'm confident, be showing up at least rarely. The main point I'm dissatisfied with is the K-D6; I may need to get in and increase its priority level. Starfleet Consternations are a little too plentiful also.

Downloads are up, so maybe we'll hear from some of the testers. "Maybe," I say. This is the SE5 community we're dealing with here, a bunch of billionaires, if silence is literally golden.


Back to top
Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I have noticed is that the test game I have proceeds at a glacially slow pace research wise.

I set up a 3 homeworld, cheap research scenario. I have most of the the planets in the home system as fully populated research worlds, two of the neighbouring systems now have their large & huge worlds configured the same. I am using fleets of transports to max out those populations yet I still can't get beyond ~250kt research points for the empire. Is there some scripted global research cap at play? It may be too strong.

Intelligence on the other hand, acts as usual. Whilst researching the overkill weaponry and defences a TrekCiv needs for survival, I've let loose ~2M of offensive Intel at one of my attackers. Set to planet & colonies attack, they were utterly zombied, so much so that the Jreanar Empire adjacent noticed & attacked them.

The game does take a lot of time to turn process, check to see if you can eliminate some list processing in the scripts.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the test game I have proceeds at a glacially slow pace research wise.

I set up a 3 homeworld, cheap research scenario. I have most of the the planets in the home system as fully populated research worlds, two of the neighbouring systems now have their large & huge worlds configured the same. I am using fleets of transports to max out those populations yet I still can't get beyond ~250kt research points for the empire. Is there some scripted global research cap at play? It may be too strong.


There's no hard cap - it just gets harder and harder to get more, the more you've got. There's an extra "penalty" too, if you reach 21%, and then another somewhere around 60% or 70% of the tech tree researched. -That's on the research facilities. There is no "braking" or anything on the components.

The research scheme is set up to prevent run-away effects.

Quote:
Intelligence on the other hand, acts as usual. Whilst researching the overkill weaponry and defences a TrekCiv needs for survival, I've let loose ~2M of offensive Intel at one of my attackers. Set to planet & colonies attack, they were utterly zombied, so much so that the Jreanar Empire adjacent noticed & attacked them.

I'm guessing you caught them with virtually no defense. I reworked things somewhat from Balance Mod, but it shouldn't be noticed much.

The deal on Intel is that you can get hammered if you don't have defense, but even a little defense will help a lot.

I kind of had two conflicting goals:
1. Intel should pay better dividends for the investment.
2. Defense should be more effective than offense, at the low end, but leaky enough in the mid and high ranges that some attacks can still get through.

Quote:
The game does take a lot of time to turn process, check to see if you can eliminate some list processing in the scripts.


Well, the scripts are slower. They're far bigger than they were in Balance Mod. For a given level of development, SEAW is going to be slower; however, if you go by game dates, it's far faster. The scripts are smarter in a few ways, doing more calculating. I didn't code them for speed.

Once the scripts finish, the rest of the processing is faster, for a number of reasons.

-- -- -- -- -- --

Now for the benefit of those who haven't followed the saga, I'll try and explain a little more.

SEAW, at 12 or 15 years into a game, processes turns probably 6 or 7 times faster. This is because of the game's pacing. There are far fewer colonies, far fewer ships. Fleet battles involve fewer ships, so the game is able to load the starting forces and save the remaining forces in less time. There's a little trade-off, since the battle timer is extended.

Even there, it depends on the number of starting planets, tech cost, and so on. You can set things up for a little faster or slower pace, and that'll make a difference.

Now if you measure the other way, by taking a given number of colonies or planets, rather than years, SEAW is considerably slower. A Balance Mod turn featuring 500 ships total will process faster than a 500 ship turn in SEAW. I haven't measured, but I'd guess Balance Mod'd be maybe close to twice as fast there.

Which is faster is all a matter of how you measure things.

----------------------

Now getting back to the research deal, it is important to keep the facilities up-to-date if you're using the research computers to boost them. You can actually lose points if you don't. If you're not using the computers to boost research, it's still a good idea.

You can also go backward in a hurry if you have a mix, with some research facilities using the computers and some not.

As I say, the purpose of the research formula is to prevent run-aways. That one empire will have more research points than another is unavoidable, and actually undesirable. An advantage can be obtained, but then the trick is to maintain it. To get ahead, and then snowball to an overwhelming advantage, is prevented, I believe. ...Unless the opposition just quits trying, or something.


Back to top
Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFIAK the Trek Civ *must* have massive warfighting tech to stay alive.
Compare a Jreanar civiilisation vs Trek Civ. Former heads to WMG (even Fusion ) weapons, latter just melts away.

That last test game, one of the normal civs overran a Klingon one before I could find it.

The cost of going for special hulls ain't worth it. Weapons vs cores?
Phased polaron vs phasers ( when the former ship mount, minimal resource usage) ?


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
AFIAK the Trek Civ *must* have massive warfighting tech to stay alive.
Compare a Jreanar civiilisation vs Trek Civ. Former heads to WMG (even Fusion ) weapons, latter just melts away.

That last test game, one of the normal civs overran a Klingon one before I could find it.

The cost of going for special hulls ain't worth it. Weapons vs cores?
Phased polaron vs phasers ( when the former ship mount, minimal resource usage) ?


The game you describe would be most atypical, although even the AI empires can get into economic scrapes. They really need to have at least the small bonus, as I recommended in the documentation.

Trekciv weapons in general match up well in all my experience. This is because their damage rates increase at an exponential rate, rather than a linear rate.

Early phasers can be tricky to employ effectively. Their damage curve mimics the damage curve of phasers in SFC. Up close, they inflict a lot of damage, but at maximum range they'll just tickle an enemy. This is covered in the extended documentation.

Once the phasers reach about 4th, maybe 5th level, I have found that they inflict sufficient damage at sufficient range for even the AI to utilize them competently in battle.

Klingons also have access to Distuptors and AQMs, and either of those can keep up with about any focused-research scheme a non-Trekciv might attempt.

Jraenar AIs (or any other non-trekciv AIs) do not normally employ "min-max". For the Jraenar to forego research of APBs and Anti-Matter Torps would be contradictory to the code in the scripts.

As the Klingon AI has access to, and will certainly use the K-D7 hull fairly early on, I don't expect other AIs to overrun them, barring economic issues befalling the given Klingon Empire.

While an human player will be subject to curiosity, and perhaps waste too many research points exploring the Legacy Hulls, the AI has no such difficulty. Trekciv AI's have been, and will be, scripted to research fairly quickly to obtain a few nice hulls, and then take a break from pursuing Legacy hulls.

Now in an hypothetical game against a non-Trekciv human opponent who tried to min-max, I might respond with a little min-maxing of my own. I'd go with the Disruptor, or the Photon Torpedo, and I'm confident either of those should suffice. Depending on what I was up against, I might grab a little tractor tech, and pull his ships in for a taste of the overloads.

Alternatively, I might choose to befuddle him with an AQM-based fleet, watch him try to make progress against my dirt cheap spam. Even players with SCF experience will need to put some serious thought into tactics for countering those babies. They'd have a general idea, but this isn't SFC, and the translation to SE5 changes a couple of factors.

In any early game "Help, I'm being overrun" situation, the common sense response of colonizing away from the enemy is valid. This is at least as easy to do in SEAW, as in other mods. Granted, the colony ships will be fewer in number, but they can be designed with unlimited range. Because of the way the research formula works, an empire with only a few worlds can actually stay "in the picture", although they'll almost certainly be behind.

On the defensive, a player who knew his way around the tech tree could quickly respond with High Energy Lasers, or even the Phaser-4.

It is also the case that the game wasn't designed with "high" starting tech, and "low" tech cost in mind. Getting things right with the middle settings was the goal. I use those "tech right now" settings myself, for testing purposes, but they have a large impact on the early game.

I suppose it might be entertaining to try playing as a non-Trekciv sometime, and min-maxing on the research. I suppose the AIs in SEAW are about as vulnerable to such a strategy as those of Balance Mod. Sometime down the road, if I take an interest, I might look into a way to script AIs to detect and counter research min-maxers more effectively. There are a couple of measures already in place, from Balance Mod. AI's "losing a war", or some such, will prioritize shield and other combat-related research. AI Empires getting swamped with Intel or out-teched by a large margin also retain the Balance Mod scripting to respond.

Now if AIs are not given at least the "small" bonus, their empires tend to stagnate or even implode. They do not cope well with the tight economy of SEAW in the early stages of the game. I have a couple of ideas which would probably help them, but those are for later on.

I think I may have a little more work to do with the Starfleet and Klingon AI scripts, as far as the hull choice thing goes. They probably need to use Mirandas and K-D6s more, instead of so many Constitutions and K-D7s, for economic reasons.


Back to top
Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant to say Human controlled Jreanar vs Human Controlled TrekCiv.
The former will just hit the weapons research & go hunting.

Deploying Shield Disruptor tech is mandatory, else enemy vessels stand off a phaser/torp TrekCiv design at range & wait for it to run out of supplies.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
I meant to say Human controlled Jreanar vs Human Controlled TrekCiv.
The former will just hit the weapons research & go hunting.


You raise an issue I'd like to stress: multiplayer!

If someone can manage to round up two or more opponents, they can set up what amounts to almost the full, finished mod. If humans play as Hydran, Romulan, and Gorn, the AIs can cover Starfleet and Klingon. The Borg are still unavailable, of course, but their absence shouldn't detract much from the game.

With 5 of the 6 Trekcivs, and 3 of them being played by intelligent beings, things could be pretty exciting. Lack of experience might well bite the humans, but recovery from mistakes is not impossible.

Now with that said, the non-Trekciv empires are certainly playable. TrekCivs have advantages, but they aren't so overwhelming as to make it suicidal to play something else. "All things being equal", the non-Trekcivs should average around 85% to 90% as strong as the Trekcivs.

As far as the suggested min-max strategy goes, it's something to try. I don't think many humans opponents are likely to lie down and die, when facing it, but someone might get lucky. ...And you gotta try something, right?

In the folder "Level 5 Spoilers", my recommendations for playing non-Trekciv empires can be found. The file is called "Tendencies.txt", and I think it will prove helpful to some.

I'm pretty sure min-maxing against AI players would stand a better chance than trying it on humans. While the AI will respond, its responses are considerably more limited. It isn't going to innovate.

Players desiring to commence steamrolling from the beginning may prefer to play Borg, when I get them finished. The Borg have some distinct advantages in the early game, and are well-equipped to go assimilating. Indeed, they must, due to their colony ship situation.
Quote:

Deploying Shield Disruptor tech is mandatory, else enemy vessels stand off a phaser/torp TrekCiv design at range & wait for it to run out of supplies.

I disagree, but you're entitled to play your game your own way.

As far as threats to game balance go, the min-maxing non-Trekciv is nothing compared to the min-maxing Trekciv. This got factored in, as a matter of course, when determining how many levels to permit on each Trekciv weapon, and assigning the costs per level. In the presence of human competition, at least, I don't think min-maxing will prove to be an "ultimate killer strategy".

For your next Trekciv game, Artful_Bodger, I recommend you play as Romulan. Romulans don't even need the Phaser at all. They have access to Disruptor tech for direct fire, and Plasma Torpedoes for seekers. Once you obtain Pseudofighters, you'll be able to equip them with all sorts of things that won't fit on smaller fighters. The Tal Shiar Intel facilities I basically ripped off from Marhawkman - you might like them also. Then there's the Romulan cloaking supremacy as well.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject: Good news, in a way Reply with quote

Oops - posted this in the wrong thread!

Well over a dozen downloads, according to the counter. The test version of SEAW has been available for nearly a month now. For the benefit of those exercising restraint, and refraining from viewing the other thread, I am semi-pleased to inform you no bugs have been reported thus far.

There are two obvious interpretations available. Either the community's finding bugs and not reporting, or they are not finding bugs.


Back to top
marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've come to realize that many people who play don't ever talk to the people who write the mods they play. :/

Anyways... I'm gonna have to sit down and take a close look at the way your weapons are balanced.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a snapshot of the higher levels, one can start a "max tech" game, and fool around in the simulator. "Max tech" isn't fun in SEAW; I'm not sure how playable it even is. Some of the tech trees can get jim-jammed, as I recall, and there's no way to research the things that get left out. Also, the AI used to have difficulties, and I do not remember enough to tell what the deal is.

Another drawback is the "1k" readings on the damage chart. They can represent anything from 1,000 to 1,999. To get precision amounts on any weapon, it'll take calculation from the damage formula.

Anyhow, it doesn't take too long to fire up a "max tech" game and get into the simulator.

There are also weapon briefings in the Spoiler folders 2 thru 6. I would suggest researching independently first, and then comparing results with what is found in the briefings. That way, one avoids tainting results with expectations.


Back to top
marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh... I'm the kind of person who would get the weapon damage data by looking in components. Razz

Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marhawkman wrote:
Heh... I'm the kind of person who would get the weapon damage data by looking in components. Razz

Your shortcut is shorter.

Back when I was doing it, I still needed to verify the workings of the combined shipsets. There - I have an excuse Laughing


Back to top
Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zwo_Dvoongar wrote:
I recommend you play as Romulan


Given that quick start doesn't work and the Romulan shipsets aren't available in a full start game, how do I do this?


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
Zwo_Dvoongar wrote:
I recommend you play as Romulan


Given that quick start doesn't work and the Romulan shipsets aren't available in a full start game, how do I do this?


The shipset is available; what is not available is a working AI script to manage the shipset in a game. If you put the "Romulan" folder in the "Empires" folder, it will show up as selectable. The issue is that you must then select it, because the Romulans require an human player to control things.


Back to top
Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Eliminating the issue Reply with quote

Okay, I just figured out a way to fix it so you won't have to worry about accidentally including an unplayable empire folder. If you want to try this, you must follow instructions to the letter.

Step 1: Get into the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 2: Inside that folder, get into the "Default" folder

Step 3: Copy (not cut) the file "default_moderate_setup_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 4: Copy (not cut) the "default_moderate_main_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 5: Rename "default_moderate_setup_script.csf" to "Hydran_setup_script.csf"
Step 6: Rename "default_moderate_main_script.csf" to "Hydran_main_script.csf"

Step 7: Copy (not cut) the file "default_moderate_setup_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 8: Copy (not cut) the "default_moderate_main_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 9: Rename "default_moderate_setup_script.csf" to "Gorn_setup_script.csf"
Step 10: Rename "default_moderate_main_script.csf" to "Gorn_main_script.csf"

Step 11: Copy (not cut) the file "default_aggressive_setup_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 12: Copy (not cut) the "default_aggressive_main_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 13: Rename "default_aggressive_setup_script.csf" to "Borg_setup_script.csf"
Step 14: Rename "default_aggressive_main_script.csf" to "Borg_main_script.csf"

Step 15: Copy (not cut) the file "default_aggressive_setup_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 16: Copy (not cut) the "default_aggressive_main_script.csf" from inside the "Default" folder to just outside of it, within the SEAW "Empires not in use" folder
Step 17: Rename "default_aggressive_setup_script.csf" to "Romulan_setup_script.csf"
Step 18: Rename "default_aggressive_main_script.csf" to "Romulan_main_script.csf"

Step 19: Either drag and drop or cut and paste both of the resulting Hydran files into the "Hydran" folder, and answer "yes" if asked about overwriting.
Step 20: Either drag and drop or cut and paste both of the resulting Gorn files into the "Gorn" folder, and answer "yes" if asked about overwriting.
Step 21: Either drag and drop or cut and paste both of the resulting Borg files into the "Borg" folder, and answer "yes" if asked about overwriting.
Step 22: Either drag and drop or cut and paste both of the resulting Romulan files into the "Romulan" folder, and answer "yes" if asked about overwriting.

If you do that, the empires will all be "safe". Accidentally including Hydran, Gorn, Borg, or Romulan empires at the start of a game will then have no ill effects. In the event the game should randomly choose any of those empires for inclusion in a game, it would play along just fine. It simply would not choose any of the corresponding "racial traits", but would make random choices instead. You might wind up with Crystalline Hydrans or something, but it wouldn't harm play.


Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Spaceempires.net Forum Index -> SEV Modding Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB
All logos and trademarks used on this site, all comments and stories posted for reading, all files hosted for download,
and all art work hosted for viewing are property of their respective owners; all the rest copyright 2003-2010 Nolan Kelly.
Syndicate news: SpaceEmpires.net News RSS Feed - Syndicate forums: SpaceEmpires.net Forums RSS Feed
Page Generation: 0.20 Seconds