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AI too unstable

 
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icmp_request
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: AI too unstable Reply with quote

Hello! Smile

I think it may be because I'm at the very beginning of a new game, but:

Ukra-Tal first contact - Next turn is Angry - I propose a non-agression in neutral space treaty - Next turn is Amiable

Cue Cappa was with a nice non-agression in all systems + trade 15%, suddenly becomes angry and cancels the treaty, but at the same time I send a treaty change proposal, they agree so the treaty is "restored". Sooner after their mood too.

Many empires seem to jump from Indifferent to Receptive/Amiable and vice-versa.

I think over time this will be solved, AI seems more stable when more game time is spent... Just curious why it's happening... I'm not Mega Evil Empire (don't even have score requisites yet) and I'm switching between 1st and 2nd position.

Game Details:

- SE5 v1.79
- Balance Mod v1.19i
- High Computer Difficulty
- Low Computer Bonus
- Large Map
- 19 players

- Default values on Settings.txt, except for:

Code:
Minimum Number Of Systems Large Quadrant := 190
Maximum Number Of Systems Large Quadrant := 200


- Screenshot of my Score (maybe something to do with my number of ships, units, etc.):



Alternate link: http://i44.tinypic.com/2agumwm.jpg


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're most likely correct about these effects being due to the earliness. Things should become more stable as time goes on, although you'll probably run afoul of the "fear" effects.

Those may already be in play, but there's something else which could add to instability. AIs have "targets", empires they'll prefer to wage war against. I know absolutely no details. Don't know how strongly the "target" status effects diplomacy, don't know the criteria they apply. Still, in the early game I expect they could be undergoing new encounters, and switching who is and who is not a "target".

Expect difficulties with the small empires. It's been my experience that they'll be far less likely to maintain peaceful relations with you. Large empires tend to go one way or another and stick to it, but the small ones are erratic. As I think I said before, you can use "fear" to your advantage: even if they hate you and declare war, offering simple non-aggression treaties every 4 or 5 turns can be effective. If I want peace, I'll try until they refuse at least 3 times, sometimes 4 or 5.

I still recall my first runt empire betrayal. Some 1-system jokers with 3 or 4 worlds were being attacked by the Norak. I had a treaty that let me colonize in the system, so I wanted to keep them as friends and keep the Norak out. I sent several gifts and tried to get the Norak to make peace and withdraw from the system. Eventually the Norak declared war on my empire so I drove them out by force. Then the runt turned on me! I had to waste time taking all their worlds. Held up my campaign quite a bit.

It's happened more than once, of course. I have intimidated the runts on several occasions also. It's rare, but sometimes they'll be scared of your size and declare war, then turn around a little while later and be so terrified they offer peace with tribute and all sorts of benefits thrown in. Been quite a while, so that wouldn't have been BM 1.19i, or even 1.19h.

Bottom line: empires near your own size should stabilize. Keep an eye on the tiny ones, even if they're friendly. Can't say what to expect of an empire much much larger than your own, since that rarely happens, and even when it happens it doesn't last too long.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFIK, the latest BM is as good as it gets AI wise.
Original game Sad.

Even with the best BM or CC (usually BM-1 Ai wise) not sharp enough.
Higher diff level means just -% modifiers.

There is a BM upgrade on the way.
Basically until that arrives (it may not address this issue), minor Empires remain pure targets, locate & conquer the Babies & try talking to the Big Girls/Boys.

I just keep the invasion fleet rollin'. Evil or Very Mad


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certain AIs just automatically hate you. Others will be friendly unles you attack. It varies.

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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AIs in the Balance Mod are not automatically set to hate another player. While there are modifiers in place that allow for additional anger based on "compatibility" factors like government and society types, they're only significant enough to introduce a bias rather than prescribe a set path of diplomacy.

In the scripts, smaller AIs are encouraged to avoid wars or if in wars to make peace, particularly with stronger players and most especially against human players. Although in the latter case, they are encouraged to be friendlier with other AI players (often what they perceive to be the human player's AI rival).

Without seeing the save game or debug files, it's difficult to describe the exact elements at play in the initial poster's observations. Some of the described dispositions are close on the "anger scale" so that certain events (new treaty, broken treaty etc) could be responsible for a jump in disposition. The longer you have the same status with an AI player, the more dominant that status becomes on the AIs disposition towards you. Typically that component is the largest contributor to the disposition. This is also why diplomacy tends to stabilize once everyone knows each other and is established. In early games, other modifiers have stronger effects and can cause a little bit of yo-yo behaviour with AI players particularly when they are straddling certain anger thresholds.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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icmp_request
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
AIs in the Balance Mod are not automatically set to hate another player. While there are modifiers in place that allow for additional anger based on "compatibility" factors like government and society types, they're only significant enough to introduce a bias rather than prescribe a set path of diplomacy.

In the scripts, smaller AIs are encouraged to avoid wars or if in wars to make peace, particularly with stronger players and most especially against human players. Although in the latter case, they are encouraged to be friendlier with other AI players (often what they perceive to be the human player's AI rival).

Without seeing the save game or debug files, it's difficult to describe the exact elements at play in the initial poster's observations. Some of the described dispositions are close on the "anger scale" so that certain events (new treaty, broken treaty etc) could be responsible for a jump in disposition. The longer you have the same status with an AI player, the more dominant that status becomes on the AIs disposition towards you. Typically that component is the largest contributor to the disposition. This is also why diplomacy tends to stabilize once everyone knows each other and is established. In early games, other modifiers have stronger effects and can cause a little bit of yo-yo behaviour with AI players particularly when they are straddling certain anger thresholds.


Thanks Cap. and everyone! Smile

Basically, the AI seems to in the long run wage peace with the player and each other. I don't see wars, conflicts, etc. but as much as it's not very "real", at least helps to keep the AI stronger anyway.

I just think these anger effects on early game seem to have too much weight. Although I started a new game, because there were too many Systems so I lowered the min/max, I still have the savegame so I can send you to analyze, if you want.

The only possible anger effect I can imagine is to make new treaties with other Empires that they are not at war, just dislike.


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