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Spaceempires.net :: Sensible combat damage patterns? Looks plausible! :: View topic
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Sensible combat damage patterns? Looks plausible!

 
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SuicideJunkie
Leaky Guru


Joined: May 28, 2005
Location: Canada!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject: Sensible combat damage patterns? Looks plausible! Reply with quote

I was recently linked to http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopict-8474.html#58697 from IRC.

Quote:
[19:55] SuicideJunkie: Man, I wish battle damage was randomizable in SE5
[19:55] Skyburn: Fighters themselves are good, but not carriers
[19:56] Skyburn: Yeah, that's a shame
[19:56] Skyburn: Azacools leaky armor think is probably the closest you could get
[19:57] Skyburn: *thing
[19:57] SuicideJunkie: What did he do?
[19:57] SuicideJunkie: I tried the 20% absorption layers, and non-armor directional armor.
[19:57] Skyburn: Something with AI tags
[19:57] SuicideJunkie: Nothing satisfied the need
[19:58] Skyburn: One sec, let me find his post
[19:58] SuicideJunkie: Only X damage? Hmm
[19:58] SuicideJunkie: Is only-X not directional?
[19:59] Skyburn: http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopict-8474.html#58697
[20:00] Skyburn: I'm not sure
[20:00] Skyburn: I've always wanted to test it, but never had the chance
[20:01] SuicideJunkie: Hmm. It is described as still directional, but randomly skipping components
[20:04] SuicideJunkie: Might be interesting if you made all the weapons 100% chance to hit.
[20:04] SuicideJunkie: Then have 1% chance of hitting each component.
[20:05] Skyburn: But you'd always damage something
[20:05] SuicideJunkie: A ship with 50 components would then have, effectively, 60% ECM
[20:05] SuicideJunkie: vs a ship with 100 components having 36% ECM
[20:06] Skyburn: It wouldn't keep going until it damaged something?
[20:06] SuicideJunkie: Just based on the chance of the incoming damage rolling natural 1's on every component it checked
[20:06] SuicideJunkie: Nah, if you fire a weapon destroyer at a ship with no weapons, it doesn't infinite loop Smile
[20:06] Skyburn: Ah, right
[20:06] Skyburn: duh
[20:07] SuicideJunkie: You could have just one generic hull, and put as many components on as you like Smile
[20:07] SuicideJunkie: The tiny ships would be really hard to "hit", and the battleships would have huge firepower
[20:07] Skyburn: That's an interesting mod idea
[20:08] SuicideJunkie: Probably can't fit QNP into that idea tho
[20:08] SuicideJunkie: But more importantly, with a very small % per component, you're pretty randomized as to what gets the damage.
[20:09] SuicideJunkie: There will be a modest bias towards the components on the side that takes the hit, but that's ok.
[20:09] Skyburn: Why no QNP?
[20:10] Skyburn: You could make it like the crew system in ekolis's mod
[20:10] SuicideJunkie: That's additive, not multiplicative
[20:10] Skyburn: Ah
[20:11] SuicideJunkie: I did have a scheme where each component needed a certain number of crew or computers Smile
[20:12] SuicideJunkie: Hmm, might be possible tho.
[20:13] SuicideJunkie: Some sort of rule that says the amount of "ballast" must be equal to the sum of the other components times the number of engines.
[20:13] SuicideJunkie: put two engines on for speed 2, and you need 8kt of "ballast" for a 40kt ship. Put 4 engines on, and you need 16kt of ballast for a 40kt ship
[20:14] SuicideJunkie: Yeah, that could be done with an AI tag on every component which matches its tonnage
[20:15] SuicideJunkie: then restriction 1 = abilityAmount(ballast_tag) * abilityAmount(engine_tag) >= abilityAmount(tonnage_tag)
[20:16] SuicideJunkie: Bit of oddness in that getting the ballast shot off doesn't affect speed, but it should be proportional to the engine loss rate.
[20:18] Skyburn: You could make the ballast be fuel tanks
[20:18] Skyburn: So if the ship doesn't lose speed it still won't get very far without ballast
[20:19] SuicideJunkie: Or, if you simply had the ballast tag equal to the tonnage tag for engines, then you'd be able to require certain size engines for 1mp each based on the tonnage used!
[20:19] SuicideJunkie: It would be like mountQNP
[20:20] SuicideJunkie: If you put dinky "150kt" rated drives on your 200kt cruiser, then it will be illegal. But if you put 200kt or better drives, then you're good to go.
[20:21] SuicideJunkie: Now, what abilities can those mounts affect?
[20:22] SuicideJunkie: I don't suppose it is possible to hide components from the ship list based on the abilities present on the design so far?
[20:22] SuicideJunkie: *from the component list
[20:24] Skyburn: I don't know
[20:24] SuicideJunkie: If engines were the only thing to use supply, then the mount can scale up the supply use. Then you just check to make sure that the design's (supplyUse)*EngineCount > tonnage!
[20:25] SuicideJunkie: You want the supply use to go up for bigger drives anyways, so its win/win Very Happy
[20:25] Skyburn: You might need to use an AI tag to represent tonnage
[20:25] SuicideJunkie: QNP and leaky armor in one go, hip hip hooray!
[20:25] Skyburn: I think the function to do it directly is broken
[20:25] SuicideJunkie: Yeah, you'd need that as noted above
[20:26] Skyburn: Oh, right, I was thinking hull size
[20:26] Skyburn: But there is only one hull size
[20:26] SuicideJunkie: Man, without being ruined by a crappy damage model, I'll have to mod SE5.
[20:27] SuicideJunkie: Upgrading from 1% absorption armor to 2% will be a huge tech to research Smile
[20:29] Skyburn: Wouldn't that make it more likely to be hit, but also more likely that hit will be on the armor and not internals?
[20:29] SuicideJunkie: Yeah.
[20:30] SuicideJunkie: Your ships would get hit more often, in general, but take less internal damage.
[20:30] SuicideJunkie: And those plates would have extra HP to compensate
[20:30] Skyburn: An interesting tradeoff
[20:31] SuicideJunkie: Say there was only 5 components, one of which is armor, and it is checked first due to placement. 10% chance to hit each, means the second component only suffers a 9% chance to be hit.
[20:32] SuicideJunkie: With 20% armor and double the hitpoints, the armor survives just as long, but the second component only has 8% chance to be hit.
[20:33] Skyburn: I've learned not to go against you on math Smile
[20:33] SuicideJunkie: Smile
[20:33] SuicideJunkie: Best of all, if you do get unlucky, and the armor is wiped off, your ship's overall chance to hit drops because you've got fewer components rolling for a chance to be hit
[20:34] SuicideJunkie: So, vaporizing a ship is a VERY inefficient use of weapons.
[20:34] SuicideJunkie: Even moreso than in CB, you want to spread your shots around.
[20:35] SuicideJunkie: Take a potshot at the wreck with one gun left and 4% chance to be hit, or drop some pain on the fresh battlcruiser with lots of guns and 70% chance of being hit.
[20:36] Skyburn: Can you customize the strategies in se5 to do that?
[20:37] SuicideJunkie: Yeah, but it isn't a good idea usually Smile
[20:37] SuicideJunkie: You also suffer from the fact that ONE ship will be the first to enter weapons range with each of your ships in turn.
[20:37] SuicideJunkie: That guy at the front of the arrowhead will be the only available target for every one of the enemy ships' first shot.
[20:37] SuicideJunkie: Once you're in the furball its ok tho
[20:38] SuicideJunkie: Best to put a 20kt scout up front so they waste their shots Smile

The mod is demanding to be exhumed!


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Skyburn
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 12, 2008

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're going to replace your existing damage model with the new one? Why not just start a completely new mod?

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SuicideJunkie
Leaky Guru


Joined: May 28, 2005
Location: Canada!

PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The unsatisfying damage model was probably the biggest problem I had killing interest.

The economics, graphics, research scheme and other stuff is just fine. Not fully developed, but it is much easier to work on when there is hope. Smile


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