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Spaceempires.net :: DJAS v75+, many Bothans died to bring you this version! :: View topic
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DJAS v75+, many Bothans died to bring you this version!
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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shrike wrote:
I've noticed that L1 resupply facilities generate 500k supplies and 500k ordnance per turn. This looks like a gigantic waste given that a homeworld can store only 40k of each. Heck, even a sphere world only stores 400k of each. Cargo facilities store a measly 5k of each, so I take it resupply facilities are accidentally generating those huge amounts.

Haphazard, but not accidental. Earlier the depots generated pathetically low amounts, sometimes not even enough to refuel a single ship in one turn, so I multiplied by ten, but that still wasn't enough for large fleets (which should take a few turns tops), so I multiplied by 100. Never even stopped to think about the amount the planet itself can store. Perhaps I'll increase that in the next patch.


Last edited by arthurtuxedo on Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total


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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just compiled the rest of the AI scripts to fix the colonization design in this version. Sorry it took so long for me to get around to this. It ended up taking about 5 minutes total.

Code:
v58:
1. AI - AI now colonizes properly, although it is still slow and not very aggressive about colonization for some unknown reason.


Savegame compatibility is 49+, so any version that still says 49+ can be updated without breaking the save.

Stable link: http://files.spaceempires.net/user/1799/DJASv58.rar


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Hazcom13
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 17, 2009

PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent fix. Can't wait to see how tough the AI is now. Smile

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Arschmeister
Space Emperor


Joined: May 26, 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, took me a while too but i ran a first test.
i can confirm colonizing is done, also outside the starting systems, but slowly.
if there's no easy fix i guess that's ok.
just some small things are itching me:
- there are neither troops nor weapon platforms on the ai planets. this is true for forward bases as well as for the homeworld (!)
because fighters usually get shot down by the troop-carrying fleet, this makes it much too easy to conquer ai planets. any ideas? if you want, i could take over an ai and check if the designs needed were put together.
- does the ai scout good enough? in djas one can build hellishly fast scouts, is the ai programmed to use fast, weaponless ships with the big sensors for the start? if not, that could be related to the ai being slower than human players - can't colonize what you haven't found...
- in "team mode", the ai gets a little grumpy ('displeased'), but even without offering peace treatys they don't declare war on me. is this intentional?

nice touch by the way with the 100kt-troops with full-sized weapons! (now i just need a way to test them against enemy weapon platforms ^^)

oops... the ai homeworld i just invaded didn't spawn militia troops. is the construction rule in the ai scripts?


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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback!

The AI still needs work to be competitive, but I'm not much of a scripter. I usually just find what I'm looking for in another script or another mod and copy-paste.

That said, I have no idea why the AI is so slow to colonize, because I certainly didn't change anything in the construction or orders scripts. They were a lot more aggressive in v32+ than v49+, but I draw a blank when I think of possible causes for that.

I know the AI doesn't build troops currently, but the lack of WP's is news to me. They should be making them, and I'm pretty sure I have come under fire from AI WP's in one of the 49+ versions. I'll have to check into that.

The AI does not use sensor arrays on scout ships, which you can chalk up to my laziness. I'll see about improving their scout designs (as well as figuring out why the bloody hell they still occasionally design ships with no supplies).

I didn't change anything about the AI's happiness or war declaration, so no idea on that last one.


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Hazcom13
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 17, 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last time I checked out what the AI was doing, I didn't see scout ships at all, and iirc, they had not wandered outside of their home system. It may have something to do with them not having scout designs.

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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would make sense. I'll look into why they stopped designing scouts.

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Arschmeister
Space Emperor


Joined: May 26, 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ummm... i'll have to double-check the part with the weapon platforms.
the two planets i invaded before were forward bases so maybe not ready yet and the homeworld... there was an "incident" with a troopless fleet. i might have killed off the wps, everything except the capital city and 2/3rds of the pop was scorched.
i'll let you know when i've taken over the other planets in his home system.
in a few weeks to about a month i might have more time to look into ai scripts, but i can't promise anything, never was good with scripting languages ^^


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Arschmeister
Space Emperor


Joined: May 26, 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, his most beloved world, a tiny breather guarded by 5 ships of the line, had no unit defenses at all. a huge non-breather had a couple fighters and two point-defense satellites. no wps so far.

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Arschmeister
Space Emperor


Joined: May 26, 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just saw a fleet with four ships of the line.
one packed to the top with solar collectors, one with small ordnance vats
then one had a ionic disperser in a bombardment mount, one had a shield depleter (yeah, in the bombardment mount)
for damage they only had a few seeking parasites without mounts

should we coordinate a major ai rewrite? i guess your mod is too unique for copy&paste Very Happy


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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AI always chooses the mount at the bottom of the list, so they will put everything bombardment on a SOTL unless I change the order so that turreted goes first (which might not be a bad idea, all in all). I thought I purged shield depleters out of the AI files, though. Maybe I never got around to it.

AFAIK the only way to get the AI to stop mounting support weapons with a bombardment mount is to disallow them from putting those weapons on any of their ships. Basically you have to choose which is the lesser of two evils.


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Arschmeister
Space Emperor


Joined: May 26, 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'll let you know when i had the time to get accustomed to the possibilities one has in ai scripts. what you said sounds like it is more limited than i thought.

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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AI ALWAYS chooses the last mount in the list? You can't override that by manually specifying a mount in the component-placement routine?

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not as far as I know, but I admit that I could be mistaken.

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TheThirdEye
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 22, 2009
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mounts don't 'work' for seeker weapons. Kinda.
IIRC the Damage multiple Does. I know that the launcher size, structure and supplies does (did anyway, this was back in the v1.4x days).

Range is NOT affected. However, the game doesn't seem to realize this, and so it will fire sooner (thinking that it IS is range).
This Could be a Great thing for design strategy (at least for humans), allowing a ship to fire it's missiles early as it closes with the enemy. Just make sure it's not set to maximum range.

I doubt that the AI could be taught to use this properly, but I'm not really a scripter. In theory, the AI can be told to do almost anything.


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Shrike
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The description for nuclear missiles reads that it holds ordnance for "a few shots", but the real amount is 10 (why not state it in description?). A single shot requires 20 ordnance however, so something needs to be corrected.

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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just leave + range out of missile mounts.

Hmm... He must have upped the usage after he last adjusted the storage.


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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheThirdEye wrote:
Mounts don't 'work' for seeker weapons. Kinda.
IIRC the Damage multiple Does. I know that the launcher size, structure and supplies does (did anyway, this was back in the v1.4x days).

Range is NOT affected. However, the game doesn't seem to realize this, and so it will fire sooner (thinking that it IS is range).
This Could be a Great thing for design strategy (at least for humans), allowing a ship to fire it's missiles early as it closes with the enemy. Just make sure it's not set to maximum range.

I doubt that the AI could be taught to use this properly, but I'm not really a scripter. In theory, the AI can be told to do almost anything.

Hmm, well that's disappointing. This was a known bug in SE IV, so I'm kind of surprised it wasn't fixed. I guess I shouldn't be though. Still, only stationary objects can even use the mount and it's only +20 ls. Since max range doesn't work anymore and an enemy ship has to close the distance before it can fire its own missiles regardless, I'm inclined to leave it as-is.


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arthurtuxedo
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 09, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shrike wrote:
The description for nuclear missiles reads that it holds ordnance for "a few shots", but the real amount is 10 (why not state it in description?). A single shot requires 20 ordnance however, so something needs to be corrected.

I used the same desc for all of them, but I suppose it's a bit misleading in the case of missiles.


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Shrike
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You, sir, are the king of understatement Twisted Evil If you can't even fire a single shot with the unit ordnance, why give it any at all?

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Criusmac
Space Emperor


Joined: May 03, 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I agree with a supply depot being able to generate enough supplies to supply an entire fleet in one month. That seems terribly fast. I mean, in this day and age, we build up supplies slowly, and just store the supplies. We use the stored supplies when needed.

How many supplies can a small to moderate fleet burn in 1 turn? That should be a good goal, no? And if you only have one planet with a supply depot, why do you have big fleets?

I think in most mods, the supply depots generate way too many supplies. You can have 1 supply depot supply every ship you build by itself right until the end of the game in the mods I've played. XD

A planet being able to hold a lot of supplies makes sense, but being able to generate a lot of supplies...

Well, that's just my take on it.


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Shrike
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of agree with moderating the supply generation itself, but the planetary storage volume should really be increased with factor 10.

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Arschmeister
Space Emperor


Joined: May 26, 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how about a strong population modifier? homeworld with 5000M pop builds up fast, can keep a really big fleet going, domed worlds struggle to supply a few ships... realistic, but do we want realism here?
if we do, i'd propose supply generation of one depot is old value * population/5000M
on a breather you quickly get about 500M ppl, i guess 1/10 of the value now should be ok for playing without having to worry about a gigantic fleet of supply ships...
just saying, i myself am ok with either way


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that idea Meister. Not sure if the game can handle it though.

Planetary storage volume WAS increased greatly in BM so it makes sense here.


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weapons disruptors are still doing puny damage in the Fire & Ice 2 game... Arthurtuxedo, did you actually fix them yet? Wink

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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