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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:28 am Post subject: AI Aggressiveness [Former Off Topic] |
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First.. Captain Kwok. Thank You! You turned a potentially awesome game into a game potently-awesome!
I come here between turns now that im addicted.
Your mod is fantastic. I was thoroughly disappointed by the weak AI after building my forces up and getting used to the game dynamics and then meeting little to no resistance in my sweep through the quandrant.
Now im not sure what to expect. Expect i have found for the most part the AI isnt nearly aggressive enough. when i do finally decide to goto war, they definately better-defend themselves.
One question for you. Is there a way, other then the All vs You option, to make the AI more aggressive? Before your Massive and all that. Im dieing to meet a hostile race that simply does not want to cooperate.
For now, I make it up, As much as I like being friendly to most alien races. we all need that one race that very much needs to be fought, with everything we've got. fire a hot, phaser shot, and make the alien scum rot!
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LordZsar1
Space Emperor
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Location: Leipzig, Deutschland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Mmh, I kind of second that... on the other hand did I not try the latest patch yet... nevertheless, I found that all the A.I.s could really be somewhat bolder with their big fleets - there have been games where I never saw something enter my systems that was not a scout.
(And I kind of miss A.I.s that bombard me with drones from systems away - a nice feature of the old Unnamed Stock AI mod.)
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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Right now Drone groups follow the same set of orders as Fighter Groups do, which is only local system defense/offense. I think I’ll have them follow attack ship orders instead, which will open up targets in other systems.
Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Im glad you fixed the drones. I remember stock, any drone that didnt have a warhead would always run away no matter what orders i gave it.
Im guessing their's no text document i can modify to make the AI more aggressive?
I'll have to play All vs me Then I guess. Id like to have the Odd Alien friend though. If I custom made a bunch of "warrior" empires would they be less friendly towards me?
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:38 am Post subject: |
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That is strange; I have had over-agressive AI's that I can barely keep out of my systems(I play max AI bonus and small # of AI empires). I have had to concede a few games due to not being able to keep my people happy, not baing able to keep colonies from being destroyed, etc. They consistantly have large fleets hammering my WP defences and breaking through quite ftem.
It seems to me that it depends a great deal on who your close neighbors are, as to how many border problems you have.
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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: |
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It's better to let the game generate the AIs as they'll use their customized scripts. Players you create during game setup and set to computer control will be stuck using the default AI, which is generally bland and isn't setup to use any racial traits etc.
The aggressiveness of the AI will depend a lot on how close they have colonies to your colonies. A number of the attack routines cut down on long distance attacks due to supply concerns etc. It'll also depend on how strong they view themselves versus your empire and if they consider you one of their primary enemies.
I'll review some of the attack conditions and see if I can encourage a bit more risk taking for the next update.
Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Hazcom13 wrote: | | That is strange; I have had over-agressive AI's that I can barely keep out of my systems |
<--- Really?
If thats the case i'll just have to play a game in a small quadrant see if that changes anything.
For me, perhaps by chance the last two games I have had every major race apathetic to me then a few receptive then the odd brotherly. But all im doing is either flat-out refusing there treaty's or countering with resource tariffs of 5 or 10%. They insist on wanting to colonize my space. Come to think of it. It may be due to my "Only Breathable" colonizing option? well if i wont let you in, then Attack me if you want in my space! Very rarely does the enemy declare war on me.
forever I was in 2nd place with all the empires receptive to me, and the Eee (in 1st) on the edge of Amiable and at war with all the other races.. but leaving me alone i slowly built up a fleet to help against the Eee, but i waited and retro-fitted my fleet, and Sabataged the Eee, yet they continued to remain amiable, Even when i finally decided i had had enough peace-time research and attacked the Eee, they only wanted to allie with me. I even felt bad for trying to kill them. While they attacked every other race. but again maybe its just unlucky games or my playing style or something.
So far im the galaxy's most charismatic species.
Edit: I mean.. Im glad the galaxy is filled with friendly and helpful aliens and all but ... why do I have all these war-ships?
One or two aggressive races in every game is always nice. Ones that are especially hard to please or ally with. especially if they ally with other races, Gotta love trying to manage war on many fronts.
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hazcom13 wrote: | ...They consistantly have large fleets hammering my WP defences and breaking through quite ftem. .
It seems to me that it depends a great deal on who your close neighbors are, as to how many border problems you have. |
my problems aren't with the military prowess of my enemies. but the lack-of enemies. I dont want to have to be the bad guy that declares the initial war. id like to be caught off guard by an angry race of aliens. that dont want peace. aka, Marauders, Voraptoid, Klingons. ya know angry aliens.
so far the whole list of empires wants to be my friend. And id say my race is relatively weak in terms of score. between 2nd and 5th. Im left with lots of time to research techs etc.. literally until i feel like declaring war on something.
I wonder if there is maybe some way to give the AI a random, I-Hate-U value. that would last for 5 years or something lets say? to simulate the sudden killing of a Sithrak diplomat in Eee space, The disapearance of a Xiati salvage vessel near Praxis, etc? Now we're talken carnage, the Soap opera of space, as some call Startrek, and an awesome time for us.
Suddenly you long-time friend and ally turns on you whilst in a war with the Xi-chung, due simply to a change in leadership. Now you must move into your recently aquired Xi - space, and vow vengence on your former allies. ok maybe im getting carried away but. Its a cool game. Thanks Kwok!
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I'd have to look atsme oldsaves to get a betterpicture(I'm at work), but any time I'm near the Sithrak, Jraenar , or Sergetti , I'm fighting them for the rest of the game.
I can usually get aong with Eee and terrans.
I COULD get along better with some of these races, but I purposefuly do not try to get on their good side. I also don't try to go out of my way to piss them off.(I never send traety offers to them, but stay out of their space).
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Nice... funny you mention those 3 races. none of them have been in my last two games. may explain the over-friendly quandrants.
im curious how do you stay off a races "good side" besides whats not working for me, like refusing treaties (i swear they like me more when i say no!) or counter offering bloated tarriffs for cease-fires. im sure seeking out there ships and destroying them is one way, but im a more defensive player. id like to have some allies and a group of "pissed-off" aliens to fight against. 
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Giving them gifts and sending them any messagesmakes them like you more. Keeping your ships in their terrtory, inciting combat(even 2 colnizers meeting), and conducting sabotage makes them like you less.
Probably another reason I keep getting attacked is because I tend to not build a military until I need it, and that makes my score smaller;and possibly their programming makes them more likely to be aggressive towards me for having less warships than them(which leads to early conflics which cycles into them liking me less)
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Tim_Ward
Space Emperor
Joined: Jan 20, 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Come to think of it. It may be due to my "Only Breathable" colonizing option? well if i wont let you in, then Attack me if you want in my space! Very rarely does the enemy declare war on me. |
No, the AI is obsessed with getting this condition. It tends to lead to those empires with a tech advantage swamping those behind on technology though, because as soon as one race gets a second colonization tech, it tends to fill ever system it can with colonies - taking worlds that the lesser empire would have gotten in due course if it hadn't agreed to let AI colonize in their space.
I never sign them until I've got all colonisation techs and I've filled out what I think of as 'my' systems. Makes the mini-map look untidy. Also, defensibility, etc.
In my experience, some empires tend to be more aggressive than others:
I don't play games too often, but I've noticed that the following races often end up with large empires and powerful fleets:
- Jraener
- Xi'chung
- Phong
- Abbidon
- Eee
This seems to be something to do with planet distribution. Gas giant races will always do well, because a) they're both friendly and therefore have tons of space to colonise (see above) and there are only two gas giant races in the game, so they always have plenty of worlds.
Ice worlders, OTOH, never seem to do well, because ice worlds seem to be rarer (?) and they're both xenophobic and so get no benefit from diplomacy. The Sergetti can sometimes be an early game challenge, but I've never known the Amon'krie be anything other than a walk over for whoever was nearby.
So, the most problematic empires are those which are aggressive enough to start wars, but peaceful enough to benefit from diplomacy (trade and extra-colonization space).
I know the sun and the moon
The names of stars, their movement and purpose
I mark the place of Polaris on these impossible heights
Last edited by Tim_Ward on Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Yep Id have to Agree, they Are definately obsessed with the colonize treaties.
Im playing a bit more successful game though following hazcom's footsteps and playing a small quandrant. Early luck with my neighboring system having a Huge Oxygen planet. but I quickly found I was competing with the Xiati for Planets and only barely managed to squeeze a couple colony ships past them before they had warships in the "air".
They went to war,and i had JUST managed to get a small fleet assembled at there doors when they offered a ceasefire. Darn!
I accepted because the benefits were too great. They have 7 or 9 colonys to my 5 scattered planets. I think im going to continue my attack anyways
That may change shortly however. The Sergetti are sabatoging me from distant space and my colony's are still only developing, and not yet at the Intel phase.
So things have gotten abit more interesting. i still have treaties withabout 70% of the races in the game. im Playing small clusters with 10 (medium) empires. but the sergetti are in, and its smallso its much more challenging. (Im playing small systems as-well)
Im the same, Id prefer to have my nice tidy space seperating from theres by a nice big mine field. I definatly dont like having them coming to colonize my unused planets.! even if i could just mine them out anyhow.
Is there a way to pick specific empires before hand? without losing the AI benefit?
Edit: Scratch that im allowing the phong into my space. they have only two planets. maybe they can be beneficial to me. heh heh heh
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: |
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There is a way to pick specific empires, but it takes some work.
First, start a game on a huge map with max number of empires. Then, go to the first menu option(the one that lets you save and load), and one option should be PLAYERS. The password for this should be master, unless you have changed it. You can set each player to human control, then pass your turn. For each empire, go back to the menu and pick SAVE EMPIRE. Doing this will save each empire as they are setup for the game options you picked. You will have to load each one, and remove the colonizing tech(otherwise they willbe 500k over the alloted tech points) and re-save them.
You might have to do this a few times to get all the empires you want.
Then you can load them as empires as you set up your new game. You just need to set them all to computer control, and get the correct AI for them. Unfortunately, I did not get the intructions todothat yesterday; I plan to find them after work today.
As an aside, I have played a couple of dual against the Sithrak to gain vengence against them for the many atrocities they have commited during my many games against random AI's. It is very satisfying to crush those bastards.
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Nice id like to get a game with mostly mean races to fight and the odd friendly one, those AI's can be a tad tricky to come by these days i've noticed. but on the bright side.. at least it shows we're a long ways away from having to fight for our lives against sky-net.
Thanks for the help. I would probably never have figured all that out.
I would keep loading games saving and loading to see what races r in game and reload as nessesary. Unfortunately, im patient like that.
I havnt had to do that though. im enjoying a small game against the amonkrie, Xiatti, and sithrak. It will be my pleasure to share in the vengeance against them.
I downloaded the NG federation shipset from atrocities. Im pretty sure i've figured out how to make them one of the random empires. but i dont know how I myself can play as them.
And im guessing i have to play with the AI to get the klingons to not be more-offs?
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: |
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If you use the default strategies(defensive, aggressive...) the AI will not have personality, and they won't use any racial techs. I'll post instructions to use Kwok's AI's for use for other empires after I get off of work.
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TheThirdEye
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 22, 2009
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:22 am Post subject: |
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If you remove (or better yet just rename) the folder of a race then they are left out of the choices when creating a game. You can put them back after the game has been created (for other games in progress).
This gives you fairly good control over who you get. Perfect control, if you cut it down to 7 races for a6 race game 
Then they all get their own custom AI scripts (which most have), and you don't have to do much fussing about it.
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Here's older post, from Kwok about each AI
Abbidon - Psychic; Peaceful
Amon'krie - None; Xenophobic (~Aggressive)
Cue'Cappa - Psychic; Neutral
Drushocka - Organic; Aggressive
EEE - None; Peaceful
Jraenar - None; Aggressive
Norak - Religious; Neutral
Phong - Crystalline; Peaceful
Sergetti - Crystalline; Xenophobic (~Aggressive)
Sithrak - None; Aggressive
Terran - None; Neutral
Ukra'Tal - Organic; Neutral
Xiati - Temporal; Xenophobic (~Aggressive)
Xi'Chung - Organic; Aggressive
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Hazcom13
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 17, 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Finally found that disscussion about selecting AI's:
http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-52973-.html#52973
This, in addition to the race descriptions, should let you pick a good group of AI's to play against for a challenging game.
Or use TheThirdEye's idea of removing any race you don't want in the game; which would be WAY easier...wish I would havethought of that monthsago 
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Damon
Space Emperor
Joined: Mar 18, 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Hah! Cool. Thats a perfect way to select what races to play against! Thanks Thethirdeye!
And I think i'll bookmark that forum for now.. i'll learn scripting another day.. Haha I guess I will have to play around with that when i want to put in some romulans in the mix.
Thanks for the Race List Hazcom! That will be handy for picking races using Thethirdeyes custom tak-neek.
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