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Spaceempires.net :: Suggestions for Nova! :: View topic
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Suggestions for Nova!
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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kwok, you shouldn't have to make the DUC/Shard Cannon/etc. into seekers for the refractive armor to work - just make up some new weapon delivery types; they can be arbitrary strings! Smile

Thus you could have the armor give resistance to "energy beam" and "energy bolt" weapons but not to "projectile" and "torpedo" weapons, for instance!


That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you certain the "weapon delivery type" can be an arbitrary string?

And also, projectile bolts would not be seekers. They'd be direct fire but have the missile delivery type.

---

I didn't put in Plasma Shields, but Subspace Shields are akin to Null-Space Shields.

I agree about the APB, it's pretty good all around. But some of the other energy weapons can be just as effective with an appropriate strategy.

PPBs do about 60-70% of the damage per kT that APBs do, but they typically only have to go through 50% of the defenses. The key is getting them early enough to maximize their effectiveness versus an opponent.

The WMG is already 2.3x times larger than other beam weapons and a massive mounted one is almost 150kT. It's pretty big. Also, you can't restrict a weapon to a mount. (Well you can, but it involves making the weapon extremely large so it won't fit on anything and then use specific mounts to shrink it down. I don't see a need to do that.)

Plasma Missiles are much more effective than CSMs and Torpedoes move much faster and have better evasion than CSMs. Gamma Pulse Torpedoes even skip all shield types, not sure why you wouldn't want to pursue 1 of those 2 areas. Anyway in the Nova Mod, there are two tiers of Torpedoes. The Spatial Torpedo is available at the same time as Nuclear Missiles are.

There's actually a bug in the Boarding Parties in the current version of the BM, which reduces their boarding capacity by 4x of their intended value - so your experience might be misleading. But boarding can be a great tactic to capture enemy technology and enemy population.

Nothing I can do about the SDD efficiency.

I don't think the Reactive Armor mechanism you suggest is possible.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Vrihedd
Space Emperor


Joined: Dec 31, 2007

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kwok, every armor have some level of invulnerability.
What do you think about giving all armors small emissive armor ability? 5% of damage resistance or sth.

Are you going to use formula which decrease weapon reload time? It gives more fun. If you do I suggest 1-3% per level.


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
I didn't put in Plasma Shields, but Subspace Shields are akin to Null-Space Shields.


Many thanks, sir!

Quote:
I agree about the APB, it's pretty good all around. But some of the other energy weapons can be just as effective with an appropriate strategy.


Perhaps, but do you really see anyone doing that? APB's just kick butt too well to mess with using alternatives.

Quote:
PPBs do about 60-70% of the damage per kT that APBs do, but they typically only have to go through 50% of the defenses. The key is getting them early enough to maximize their effectiveness versus an opponent.


And you've hit upon the crux of the problem: If I have a mixed fleet of PPB's and APB's, the PPB's never really get a chance to do their thing. The APB's are more accurate (hitting more often is the same as increasing damage) and generally have better range. The end result is the shields are usually down by the time the PPB's can be brought to bear. I can get around this by going with all PPB's, but that makes no sense at all; the damage disadvantage of PPB's vs. APB's would make this rather lopsided.

Quote:
The WMG is already 2.3x times larger than other beam weapons and a massive mounted one is almost 150kT. It's pretty big. Also, you can't restrict a weapon to a mount. (Well you can, but it involves making the weapon extremely large so it won't fit on anything and then use specific mounts to shrink it down. I don't see a need to do that.)


Agreed on the mount problem. How about this: how big (in kT) is a WMG on a Massive Mount? Why not make the WMG that size by default and disallow the use of mounts? I just find it impractical how many of these you can mount on a BB or DN. The idea (in my head, anyway) of a WMG is something the ship is built for, not the other way around. Think of the GAU-8/A 30mm Gatling gun in the A-10 Thunderbolt II. The gun was designed first, and then the plane was built to house the gun.

Quote:
Plasma Missiles are much more effective than CSMs and Torpedoes move much faster and have better evasion than CSMs. Gamma Pulse Torpedoes even skip all shield types, not sure why you wouldn't want to pursue 1 of those 2 areas. Anyway in the Nova Mod, there are two tiers of Torpedoes. The Spatial Torpedo is available at the same time as Nuclear Missiles are.


I'll give these a try.

Quote:
There's actually a bug in the Boarding Parties in the current version of the BM, which reduces their boarding capacity by 4x of their intended value - so your experience might be misleading. But boarding can be a great tactic to capture enemy technology and enemy population.


Since I spend so much on research, it's rare that I need to steal tech from anyone else. Now if I could steal racial techs... Wink

Quote:
Nothing I can do about the SDD efficiency.


Another hardcoded limitation, eh? Darn.

Quote:
I don't think the Reactive Armor mechanism you suggest is possible.


Nuts.

What about the other suggestions? Fleet Bridge? Colony sight ranges? Tractor/Repulsor components? You didn't say anything about these. Good idea? Bad? Indifferent?


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you read the PPB description, you'd be happy to know it has the same accuracy bonus as an APB. A decent PPB strategy would be to research Physics 3 early on and split your weapons research between Phased and High-Energy weapons. Once your opponents have phased shields, you move entirely into the High-Energy branch.

Meson Blasters and Ripper Beams have better damage ratios than APBs. Since these weapons have shorter ranges, you're often firing them with only 10-15% less accuracy than an APB and doing typically 20% more (probably 50% more with Rippers) damage per kT.

I still need to evaluate Incinerator Beams versus emissive armor. IBs are probably triggering twice the emissive effect most of the time, which would make them less effective than APBs.

Ideally you should almost always be using mounts with WMGs. It's hard to pass up on the extra damage you get. That means you're at least over 100kT.

Anyway the actual damage values in Nova will differ from the Balance Mod because of the extended low tech weapon areas. That opens up the opportunity for different takes on some of the traditional SE weapons.

---

I agree about Tractor Beams, not very effective without mounts. Repulsor Beams are set to push away enemies that are too close, so the range doesn't need to be as far.

---

I'm not keen on fleet bridges, since fleet training serves the same purpose. However there will be a couple of sector bonus components that might be carried on a "Sensor Ship" that will provide combat or shield bonuses.

---

One of the facilities is a sensor station. It can be used to improve colony sight levels.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Crissa
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 07, 2006

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meson blasters also typically have more damage at their long range than APBs, so they work best on ships that intend to stay back... Whereas APBs are better if the ship won't control its range as well. Ships that end up chasing rather than being chased do better with Meson than APBs and vice versa.

I kinda like the idea of fleet bridges - or flagship control arrays. I like the idea of the Neural Net, too, but it just doesn't give enough bonus to weight to make it worthwhile.

-Crissa


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Vrihedd
Space Emperor


Joined: Dec 31, 2007

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about my questions four posts ago?

And what do you think about crazy ideas for components like Sector Cloak (sector-sight obscuration). Sector Blur (sector-sensor interference) ?
They should work.
Sector blur is the best way for misile race to increase their ships and seekers resistance.


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Crissa
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 07, 2006

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that'd be awesome, Vrr.

I rather wish the scanner jammers just did that, though. Reduce all sensor range, maybe give a tiny level boost to anything in the sector.

But it'd have to be a huge facility or something to actually hide stuff in a sector... That's what nebulae creators were for.

-Crissa


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Vrihedd
Space Emperor


Joined: Dec 31, 2007

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With sector cloak or sector blur you have your own mobile storm Smile

When Sector Cloak is active and you haven't good sensors you can see only your ships in this sector. With sector blur you need good combat sensors to hit target with DF weapon.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might have missed my comments a couple of posts earlier on components with abilities to improve shields/sensors for an entire sector. Essentially these are large components that enhance shield or sensor performance a race in the sector. This would be achieved via the component abilities using a sector scope to avoid stacking, which some of the related stellar abilities would do.

---

I'd be cautious about reload times. There are already some issues with time granularity at higher combat speeds, so the reload time decreases would probably need to be in specific time blocks rather than percentages of the base firing rate.

---

I don't have a problem with adding a small emissive value to regular armor.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kwok,

Three things that particularly pique my interest:

- The aforementioned sight radius for colonies being equal to what you'd get if you had a recon sat in orbit with the latest Basic Sensor tech level.

- How about a colony facility that gives Basic Sensor sight to the entire system? It could be upgraded as sensor tech increases, but would never have abilities like a Tachyon Sensor (i.e. couldn't find cloaked ships that Basic Sensors couldn't find). I considered a Basic Sensor facility on a per-colony basis, but it's ridiculous to use up a facility slot for something like this, esp. on Tiny or Small planets.

In case it isn't obvious, I'm trying to get around the annoyance of launching, maintaining, and upgrading Basic Sensor sats on a per colony basis.

- I like the prior ideas of some sort of colony cloaking device, or at least something that reduces detection range.

Also, I'd like to take my hat off to you for putting the reactor concept into the mix. It's something I've wanted to see for a while. It's how the game should've been in the first place.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you miss the comment on the "Sensor Station" facility above? It does exactly what you want. Well sort of. It's radius will improve will tech level, probably starting with a radius of 10 sectors.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I missed it. I'd rather it start off with a bigger radii, though.

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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a side note, I recall you fixing QR's such that they would not generate supply while vessels were cloaked. I've always had a question about exactly how this is applied.

If a ship has a cloaking device component and it's activated, I can see disabling the QR. But what about just plain old stealth armor? I've always seen that component's stealth capabilities as a passive ability akin to what we have now with the B-2 bomber. So does activating the cloak on stealth armor turn off the QR? I would suggest that it should not. Cloaking devices, yes. Armor, no.

What's your stance on this?


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you just give planets a high sight level, you're eliminating a lot of the sight system's purpose and you might as well play with all objects visible in a system.

It's the same cloak ability on both components, so I'd assume supplies would not be generated in either case. You could argue that it's realistic for both as you wouldn't want to emit an "energy" signature when you're running in stealth/cloak mode. It also adds some strategy to using stealth/cloak since you can't just run around cloaked/stealthed all the time.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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SuicideJunkie
Leaky Guru


Joined: May 28, 2005
Location: Canada!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
Are you certain the "weapon delivery type" can be an arbitrary string?
Yes. In GGmod, I used "Generic Weapon" for everything, so that I could scale damage depending on the culture choice.

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SuicideJunkie
Leaky Guru


Joined: May 28, 2005
Location: Canada!

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the idea that newly constructed ships should start out empty of supplies/ordnance?

You've got supplies = power generated on the fly with reactors, but ordnance is still game.

It doesn't make sense for free ordnance to appear when building ships, if you have proper facilities and components for managing ordnance.

Large ammo depot facilities, ordnance factories, and probably a small amount of ordnance generation by the SY components... just not unlimited with each ship you build Smile


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Crixon
Space Emperor


Joined: Nov 21, 2005

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya i do kinda like the idea of having no supply/ordnance of build as sometimes its easier to build a supply ship transfer its supplys over and scrap it then wait for resupply,as long as its easy enough to get the supplys back (from the looks of things it will be)

Also maybe have a few more fighter components would be nice,im not entirely sure what you would put in but anti fighter weapons for fighers and anti seeker weapons,also maybe some more "bomber" related stuff,that way you can have interceptors fighters and bombers in a fleet, and i would really like to see some reason to use half the components out there,like normal armors are useless compaired to emassive in BM,most weapons are not that usefull eather and we tend to use only 1 type of gun,

thats all i really can think of right now


We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SJ - you could also run the script so that the new ships subtracted their initial supply/ordnance from the nearest colony rather than start zeroed out.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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prisoner881
Space Emperor


Joined: Jul 15, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
If you just give planets a high sight level, you're eliminating a lot of the sight system's purpose and you might as well play with all objects visible in a system.


Assuming you own several planets in the system, you're right. However, in systems where you don't (uncolonized or enemy systems) you wouldn't have sight. Turning on "all objects visible" would not produce there results. That's kind of like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

The issue is this: I build sensor sats for every colony I own, so any system that I wholly own generally has 100% sight already. If I could get the AI to just build one of them and be done with it I wouldn't care about this, but the AI insists on building quite a few of them per colony (and only launching them once 10-15 are built). It's silly to have that many sats devoted just to sight when one does the job quite well. So I end up doing this manually for every colony (or I get frustrated, let the AI handle it, and waste lots of resources supporting 10x the number of recon sats that I really need).

It's just a pet peeve. I'm not all worked up about it, but I do think giving sight to colonies just makes good sense. It's not like good players don't automatically put up sats for sight anyway. Everybody does.


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SuicideJunkie
Leaky Guru


Joined: May 28, 2005
Location: Canada!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
SJ - you could also run the script so that the new ships subtracted their initial supply/ordnance from the nearest colony rather than start zeroed out.
The only problem with that is the function to get the current level of ordnance is not implemented yet.

... so there is no way to tell if the nearest colony has any to give.


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Crissa
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 07, 2006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matter if any have to give, since you'd want ships to start out with no ordinance if there wasn't any available...

Is there a AUTOMATIC_ORDINANCE_LEVEL? Like the population one?

-Crissa


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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to check again, but I recall new ships taking from a planet when there was no supply depot there. Just tossing that into the mix.

I haven't looked at this yet - are there "space-only race" possibilities?


EDIT: I always want the "long-range" team... I'd love to see a racial that is focused on long range. Maybe Energy or gravity masters... and maybe it's WAY to early for that...


There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ships will take supply/ordnance from any planet they can.

SJ was saying there is no script function that returns the amount of ordnance that a ship or planet has. You need to know this amount to handle the accounting of the ordnance.

It shouldn't be difficult to persuade MM to add such a function.

---

Personally I just consider the starting supply/ordnance amounts are "manufactured" as part of the ship's resource cost.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had ships that were newly manufactured but not "full" because there wasn't enough supplies on the planet... but again, this was long ago & I don't recall if there were special circumstances (beyond no Resupply depot)

There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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