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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: Has the developer abandoned this game?
It seems that the developer has abandoned this game. There has not been an updated patch in something like forever. Although the modding community has done a great job with this game some things are beyond even their mighty powers to fix. If the developed has no interest in maintaining their work then they should turn it over to the users who at least seem to still have an interest in this game.
Some tweaks/fixes are fairly easy to inplement others more difficult. But, if the developer has lost interest(or lost control)in maintaining the code then that leaves the community hanging.
It is a classic conundrum. Without the source code the community can do little except apply lipstick to the ongoing issues. But, the developer(and his handlers)have no motivation to turn the source code over to anyone else without risking future profits. Although reverse engineering(decompiling)the executable is theoretically possible , doing so with copywrited software is definitely a walk on the dark side.
So, what to do...
Appeal to the developer?
Appeal to the distributor?
Hack/reverse engineer the software?
Just ignore the issues and ultimately let the game die a slow death?
As I see it the SEV community have few options and no real power. We can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. It is a shame. The SEV community has put as much effort into modding this game as the original developer has in writting the initial code. You could argue that the SEV community cares more about this game than the developed ever will based on the volume of(and quality of)the mods currently available.
Although SEV runs well on older operating systems using older hardware it runs much slower on current operating systems. Is that fair? We can add new harddrives, faster CPU's, and more memory but still we are at the mercy of software developers to maintain their work. Sad very sad Back to top
Joined: Aug 04, 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject:
Options 1, 2, and 4 have been tried, to no avail. As for option 3, maybe if we outsourced it to China, where they have no copyright laws, and told the Chinese hackers to rebuild the game with a different name? That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet! Back to top
Have an SE IV/SE V mod of another game?
Something like Sins of a Solar Empire springs to mind, I'd expect that that would be almost as much work as a re-write though.
... China does have copyright laws, they just don't enforce them too pedantically. Back to top
The last I heard, the owner of the franchise, Strategy First, doesn't want to pay for the developer, Malfador/Aaron Hall, to continue putting out patches. Smarter than your average Texrak. Back to top
Reverse Engineering would be difficult. If I remember right Fyron said it would take a knowledge of binary coding. (or if he was sarcastic some other more complex programming languages.) It would be easy to fix data file issues, which is why we have mods. Engine updates would be more complex and would be the crux of what you would want to do. I can suggest options 5 and 6 though.
5. Work with Aaron Hall in person and release an unofficial patch. I don't think he would be against it as he programmed a couple other of the SE games for himself and friends but the distributors likely don't want to pay for the hassle of distributing it.
6. Push for the development of a new addition. The game is ageing and will die in terms of operating systems at some point. A new edition would be doable especially if a new engine was back compatible with current files. To do this though you would have to prove interest, though I will comment that the game poses an interesting platform for AI modding and with expanded capabilities would make a great testbed. Also a PBC system could be used for research into governments at universities via simulation. The key word is profitability. Someone will have to pay enough. Back to top
An unofficial patch would be a temporary measure but the blood sucking lawyers would line up to sue Aaron if he tried it without authorization from Strategy First.
The only solution that would breath life back into this game is the release of the source code to the SEV community. Lets face it, sales of this game have probably long ago peaked. But, I suppose, even with this game on long term life support Strategy First may wring a few more dollars(pennies?)in sales.
Now if Aaron were to 'accidentally' release the source code that would be a wonderful thing. I am not sure how he could do it without raising the ire of his corporate masters. But, things do get misplaced from time to time even in cyberspace.
As for decompiling the exe. Yeah you could decompile it into assembler. A good programmer could use that to tweak the game but major revisions would be very difficult to do. I don't know if you could move up the software food chain to a higher level language using just the decompiled assembler code. It would be an interesting academic exercise if nothing else.
So where does that leave us?
Strategy First doesn't care about further patches.
Aaron seems powerless in the face of his corporate masters.
The SEV community is left to twist in the wind.
You can recompile a binary into the source language. The problem is that you cannot recover the comments that tell you what methods do, or the original code structure. The binary contains a ton of compiler optimizations that change the instructions around. You also cannot recover many of the original variable and methods names, since they exist only in source code for human convenience (they get rewritten as register references in the compiled machine language). What you get back is much harder to work with than the original source code. It's doable, but much more expensive in programmer hours. Smarter than your average Texrak. Back to top
Joined: Aug 04, 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject:
There was an idea floating around a while back that if we could raise enough money, and Strategy First was desperate enough for cash, that we could buy the rights to the game from them... unfortunately I think SF didn't really take us seriously, and nobody wanted to pledge any money unless there was actually a chance of it working! That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet! Back to top
Maybe something like Kickstarter could be of use. S1st or Aaron sets an amount to raise in a certain length of time, and people only have to pay if or when that amount was reached.
As long as the amount isn't too high it should be doable. There was decent interest in a new patch a couple of years ago.
Anyone willing to contact Strategy First and see if there is a dollar amount that would satisfy them. I don't know where Aaron would stand on all this from a moral and legal point of view.
If he sold the source code to S1st outright then it is completely up to them. Back to top
What if we wrote our own exe that exactly duplicated what Aaron did in his?
Ok, stop laughing...
Look at what we already have...
The data files are in text format and in my mind are fully in the public domain. The graphics might be more questionable but we could always replace the stock graphics with our own versions. We know what the game interface looks like and how everything works from the users point of view. We have the game user manual and modding information that Aaron provided which gives us further insight into his code.
So, if we created our own exe that recreated(and improved upon)the functionality found in his would that be illegal? The resulting code would be unique and would belong to the SEV community. Strategy First could keep the original code because ultimately we would'nt need it anyway.
I have done some programming in Delphi as have others around here I am sure. We can leverage the talent found in the SEV community. Lets face it, no more patches are coming any time soon. The game still has bugs and tweaks that need to be attended to.
If we don't step up who will?
Just because S1st has forced Aaron to roll over does that mean we have to as well?
Is it doable? yes
Will it be difficult? yes
Is it impossible? no
Last edited by majorgreg on Fri May 18, 2012 4:14 am; edited 4 times in total Back to top
Trust me when I say they need to rewrite copywrite law. Aaron's code will be his until 95 years after he dies. I do not think strategy first owns it but they are the publisher and he is probably on a contract that prevents him from freelancing with the game too much. That would be illegal. If there isn't a trademark it may be possible to make an SEVI if there were enough differences. Back to top
Joined: Aug 04, 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:
No, Veni_Vidi_Vici, it is perfectly legal to buy the copyright for something from someone, so SE5 does in fact belong to SF.
That's the real problem though - since Aaron couldn't have sold the game as successfully as SF did, he was essentially at their mercy in terms of what they could offer him. It's even worse with patents, because if you invent something useful but expensive to replicate (e.g. a new drug), you can't make any money on it on your own, so you're even more at the mercy of whoever you sell it to! That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet! Back to top
I know im not an active part of this community, but i would like to add something to this discussion, anyway.
I really hate to be "that guy" raining on this parade, but writing "our own exe that exactly duplicated what Aaron did" is a tremendous task!
As a novice hobby programmer, I know its not my place to assess the difficulty of such a project, but i know that, for me, already struggling with something as simple as an application to visualize commodity trading for a space sim, jumping to (essentialy) rewrite SEV would be like going from sandcastles to actual skyscrapers (with nothing but a bucket and a shovel as tools).
I can, literally, not fathom the complexity of such a project.
You might already know this, majorgreg, if so, im sorry for pointing this out.
That being said, I would love to see this done. With enough determination and "knowing what one's doing", I know this idea can become reality - it's been done with M.A.X.R., which is essentialy the same thing for an old DOS TBS classic.
After about 5 years of development by various free-time contributors, it has recently celebrated the milestone of being stable for 200 turns in a row (the "rewrite" begun for the original becoming unstable after about 400 turns)
I would be happy to contribute my meager knowledge of C/C++, in what little free time i can spare. However, i'm afraid that my skills are so low that i would be of little to no help.
Disclaimer: English is a foreign language to me. I'm sorry for any badly worded sentences! Back to top
My basic question is what part of the SEV install is public domain? Virtually all of the various configuration files are in text format and since he has encouraged modding I would think that we would be free to use them as we see fit. The graphics are more of a grey area.
The way I see it almost all the data is sitting free and clear out in the open. All we have to do is figure out how he did certain things. I particular we have to figure out how(in an algorithmic sense)he does his turn processing.
Now, we are not obligated to do things in exactly the same we he does them. Software is like cars. Many people don't care how an automobile works as long as it gets them from A to B safely and efficiently. Same with software. Peeking under the hood when dealing with software is a little more difficult but not daunting.
If we want this game to go to the next level then appealing to S1st or Aaron probably will not work. I know that there is a long laundry list of things that people would like in SEVI. Unless someone has a fairy godmother who is also a programmer SEVI will forever remain vaporware. If that is what you want then so be it. Keep asking for the next patch that will never come. Keep wondering if SEVI is in development.
In 5 years you will still be waiting... or perhaps not... Back to top
With the way the economy and all affecting software development is a Source forge page may be the best alternative to waiting; and waiting; and waiting. Back to top
Maybe I put it in a wrong way; i did not want to discourage a rewrite, only make sure that everyone's aware of the difficulty of putting that idea into action...
Shrike wrote:
It's been tried before ... does anyone remember Star Legacy? That initiative seems to have died out without as much as a whisper, if their forum is any measure to go by http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=224.
...and that's why. Mind, I only parrot what's written in the book i learned programming from (sth. akin to "game programming in c++ for dummies"), and what seems consensus among the few dev-boards i lurk. I'm especially reminded of a part where the author would advice against taking too big steps, describing his expirience of countless ambitious projects that were abandonded by their aspiring developers somewhere after "installer done" and "menu done".
majorgreg wrote:
Well everything starts with baby steps...
Indeed. Yet there are years of gaining proficiency in walking between the babys first steps and its first marathon - thats what i wanted to say (figuratively, of course ).
But, yes, every journey starts with a first step!
majorgreg wrote:
My basic question is what part of the SEV install is public domain? Virtually all of the various configuration files are in text format and since he has encouraged modding I would think that we would be free to use them as we see fit. The graphics are more of a grey area.
I might be mistaken, but I think it should be in the EULA. What the EULA defines as public is public. Everything else is not. The matter with the graphics, at least in my country, is simple, too: Graphics have been made, therefore they are copyrighted. Im not sure how about US/International Law, though.
majorgreg wrote:
The way I see it almost all the data is sitting free and clear out in the open. All we have to do is figure out how he did certain things. I particular we have to figure out how(in an algorithmic sense)he does his turn processing.
Now, we are not obligated to do things in exactly the same we he does them.
Exactly. That means it is irrelevant how he did certain things; it only matters how we do certain things. Without seeing the source code, it is almost certain that we can't do anything the same way as Aaron.
majorgreg wrote:
Software is like cars. Many people don't care how an automobile works as long as it gets them from A to B safely and efficiently. Same with software. Peeking under the hood when dealing with software is a little more difficult but not daunting.
If we want this game to go to the next level then appealing to S1st or Aaron probably will not work. I know that there is a long laundry list of things that people would like in SEVI. Unless someone has a fairy godmother who is also a programmer SEVI will forever remain vaporware. If that is what you want then so be it. Keep asking for the next patch that will never come. Keep wondering if SEVI is in development.
In 5 years you will still be waiting... or perhaps not...
Well, every journey starts with a first step. But I know I am not a marathon runner; I might be of help when led, but wo will lead?
Are you, or is someone here, expierienced enough for a project like this? I.e. someone who can honestly say "I made a Master of Orion, Battle Isles or GalCiv clone already and successfully" ? Or something equally 'big' for another genre? Or at 'least' someone who can honestly say "this projects complexity is only a small step up from what i made", without falling for the "dunning–kruger effect"?
If so, lets get started already
ForesterSOF wrote:
With the way the economy and all affecting software development is a Source forge page may be the best alternative to waiting; and waiting; and waiting.
I like this idea, too. I remember the m.a.x.r. project staying alive for so long because of its open-source nature! Back to top
It goes without saying that any re-imaging of this game should be an open source, OS agnostic solution.
The more open it is the less risk of it being squatted on by legal toads.
I guess the original design (SE I) was done 15-20 years ago, there are some heavy duty, open source building blocks in the wild.
Instead of a total rewrite, base it on one of these plus a perl/python database interface, a lot of the scripts/messages in the original design really should have been DB/spreadsheeted as opposed to hard coded.
The AI might benefit from a real AI knowledge base http://sourceforge.net/projects/openkbs/. That is a project just starting, I have no idea how usable it might be. Downside of that idea is that AI KB programming is a specialist artform making later mods harder.
The CIV series (CIV 4 +) has a python interface to allow for easy mods. Hearts of Iron has a lot of its stuff in Excel style spreadsheets. There is no need or point in having a specialist scripting language. You'd need a translator tool to take SExxx scripts into say python.
Any re-write must be able to incorporate the awesome work done by the many contributers to this forum.
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