Dvoongar, I recently had a game where bunch of enemy fighters squatted on a warp with a 75% sensor reduction. This made them really dificult to kill.
Eventually though, they ran out of supplies, so I send in a couple of APB ships to clean them out, and to make sure I could hit em I set my ships to 'Point Blank' from your most recent strategies.
After the battle I saw they had only killed one fighter.
The replay showed that they would head towards one fighter, fire at about medium range, miss, then turn away and do the same for another random fighter in the area.
Basically they ran around wasting their time.
What is the problem and how can I fix it?
Sounds like the target priorities are a bit borked. This behaviour I would expect from a setting with prioritization for the most damaged enemy or somesuch. Back to top
Dvoongar, I recently had a game where bunch of enemy fighters squatted on a warp with a 75% sensor reduction. This made them really dificult to kill.
Eventually though, they ran out of supplies, so I send in a couple of APB ships to clean them out, and to make sure I could hit em I set my ships to 'Point Blank' from your most recent strategies.
After the battle I saw they had only killed one fighter.
The replay showed that they would head towards one fighter, fire at about medium range, miss, then turn away and do the same for another random fighter in the area.
Basically they ran around wasting their time.
What is the problem and how can I fix it?
Sounds like the target priorities are a bit borked. This behaviour I would expect from a setting with prioritization for the most damaged enemy or somesuch.
Well, here is what they were using:
Targeting Priority 1 := Total Targeted Damage < 75% of Structure
Targeting Priority 2 := Nearest (10 ls increments)
Targeting Priority 3 := Has Undamaged Weapons
Targeting Priority 4 := Target Type
Targeting Priority 5 := Nearest (Absolute)
Is it possible that the ships were making the assumption that the shots would be effective (with a 75% sensor reduction even point blank Flak cannons were a crapshoot) and were moving onto another target before they realized they had missed? SEV Visual Mods:
Black UI Reduced Size Shipsets Back to top
Dvoongar, I recently had a game where bunch of enemy fighters squatted on a warp with a 75% sensor reduction. This made them really dificult to kill.
Eventually though, they ran out of supplies, so I send in a couple of APB ships to clean them out, and to make sure I could hit em I set my ships to 'Point Blank' from your most recent strategies.
After the battle I saw they had only killed one fighter.
The replay showed that they would head towards one fighter, fire at about medium range, miss, then turn away and do the same for another random fighter in the area.
Basically they ran around wasting their time.
What is the problem and how can I fix it?
Sounds like the target priorities are a bit borked. This behaviour I would expect from a setting with prioritization for the most damaged enemy or somesuch.
Well, here is what they were using:
Targeting Priority 1 := Total Targeted Damage < 75% of Structure
Targeting Priority 2 := Nearest (10 ls increments)
Targeting Priority 3 := Has Undamaged Weapons
Targeting Priority 4 := Target Type
Targeting Priority 5 := Nearest (Absolute)
Is it possible that the ships were making the assumption that the shots would be effective (with a 75% sensor reduction even point blank Flak cannons were a crapshoot) and were moving onto another target before they realized they had missed? SEV Visual Mods:
Black UI Reduced Size Shipsets Back to top
On the subject of 'Point Blank', I recently sent some ripper beam armed Marines loose on a large enemy mining colony.
They closed & took out the defenders as expected, then turned their frenzy onto the colony facilities flattening the lot.
Looking at the doctrine settings, Buildings were DNE but Facilities were (from memory) short 100% damage. Simple enough to edit it back to DNE, but was that setting intended for some reason?
Yes, that's actually intentional. There are a few ways ground combats can become stalemated. I think the crippled fighter stalemate's been solved by Balance Mod giving unit repair to planets, but it may still exist in stock. Emissive armor on WP's can also stalemate things.
So some of the strats target facilities as a way to compensate the attacking side. It also gives you a chance to do some damage even in a losing battle.
There are two sides to the coin, of course. In the aftermath of a victory, one would prefer to receive everything intact.
It wasn't an cut-and-dried, obvious decision. For a while I tried setting all strats that way, but it gets pretty annoying. I had troops pounding buildings & such instead of chasing down cripples. All things considered, well obviously I thought the compromise was the best solution available. Back to top
Dvoongar, I recently had a game where bunch of enemy fighters squatted on a warp with a 75% sensor reduction. This made them really dificult to kill.
Eventually though, they ran out of supplies, so I send in a couple of APB ships to clean them out, and to make sure I could hit em I set my ships to 'Point Blank' from your most recent strategies.
After the battle I saw they had only killed one fighter.
The replay showed that they would head towards one fighter, fire at about medium range, miss, then turn away and do the same for another random fighter in the area.
Basically they ran around wasting their time.
What is the problem and how can I fix it?
Puzzling.
Point Blank isn't a finisher strat vs. fighters. Damage to 90% and quit. Hardly anything in the doctrines is set to totally kill every type of target, since crippling is usually enough and often advantageous. (And they kill kill kill anyhow - try and stop 'em)
That still doesn't explain why they'd fire an abort - your TTD theory seems a better try. I'd crank up both to 100%, and see if it helps.
It's an unusual situation, and I'm reluctant to make a revision until we understand it better. If the 90% damage were the problem, the targets shouldn't have been engaged at all. I would expect them to quickly re-acquire following a miss if it were the TTD thing.
This is just weird. Let me know what happens next time you engage.
No problems, at least it proves I use the Doctrines .
More than that: It proves you pay attention to strats and what goes on in combat
I'm re-thinking the choice to list Point Blank first. Ascending order's meant to be a convenience for the player, but I think Short Range might be a better default. Boy, that's an issue I hate: what's the best 1-size-fits-all? Back to top
In regards to my earlier fighter killing problem, I thought that one solution might be to just ram them if I can't hit them.
However it seems that setting my ships to both 'Ram Fighters' and Kamikaze' has no effect.
With Ram fighters the ship ran away, and with Kamikaze it just rotated in place and didn't move anywhere.
In regards to my earlier fighter killing problem, I thought that one solution might be to just ram them if I can't hit them.
However it seems that setting my ships to both 'Ram Fighters' and Kamikaze' has no effect.
With Ram fighters the ship ran away, and with Kamikaze it just rotated in place and didn't move anywhere.
Whats the problem?
Whatever the problem is, strats won't fix it. Ram Fighters should've done the job - no question. (Kamikaze ignores fighters - DNE - don't expect I need to explain.) Back to top
Whatever the problem is, strats won't fix it. Ram Fighters should've done the job - no question. (Kamikaze ignores fighters - DNE - don't expect I need to explain.)
Played around with it a bit and think I may have fixed it.
Changing the first targeting priority to 'Nearest (Absolute)', seems to do the trick SEV Visual Mods:
Black UI Reduced Size Shipsets Back to top
Okay if I announce it, hopefully I'll follow through.
Just finished the planning stage, and it's time for the tedious part. I'm working on a group of different doctrines for the AI's. Target number is 24. Installation will be a bit tedious, but simple in principle. The result will be AI's with "personality" ...or at least variety in their tactics. Players who stay on their toes should do well, but the complacent will be in for a few nasty surprises.
...Eventually. Until a player goes to war with the right/wrong AI, he won't see much. Many of the tweaks are relatively minor, and some are situation-dependent. Sooner or later you'll fight the right/wrong enemy in the right/wrong situation and discover the wild side. If I provoke an exclamation, I pretty well succeed even if it doesn't include cuss words.
When properly countered, the more extreme tactics are expected to be slightly weaker. After all, the standard Doctrines are intended to be strong and well-balanced. Anyhow, it should get players to pay attention and not take things for granted.
Still can't think of a snazzy name for the package. "Tactical Variety Mod" is descriptive but ditchwater dull. Suggestions are welcome. Back to top
Those tactics might have to vary depending on available tech.
If your AI goes for Ripper Beams, a Point Blank style may be where to be, but is of no advantage if he's only researched to L1 DUC early game.
It would be nice if the AI Troops used their own default too ...
I don't think this can be done with strategy changes alone.
No, that'd be in the Design Minister AI, the part that assigns strats.
I did think about making a troop strat; AI's wouldn't use it if I did so I never bothered.
And to be honest, there's not much that should really throw the human player. Some AI's glaze planets and some don't. Some break formation and some don't. Makes more sense than all-or-nothing, and such variables as are available can sometimes make a difference.
Most I really hope for is that players will face enough different looks that they're provoked to adjust once in a while. Back to top
I installed the game on a new computer, and couldn't recall how to install my old doctrines' strats.
Looking through our old posts I came across this:
Zwo_Dvoongar wrote:
...Well, you don't need to have the Doctrines installed to use them yourself. Just start a dummy game with them, go to the strat-editing part of the crown menu, and save 'em. Then in your PBW game you can load the file even if it's set up with stock...
Saving & Loading strats wasn't originally an option, so some players may not be aware of it. It's really handy. You can make & save your own derivatives of stock or the Doctrines, and have them available in any game.
The only drawback is that the save is in a different format, so one cannot use it to make a "Strategies.txt" file.
I thought that I wouldn't be able to transfer the strats from my old computer, but it turns out you were (partially) mistaken.
It does save the customized strats as a different format, but you can access these and transfer them freely.
It saves them as an .stg file in the "Saved Empires" Folder.
From here you can move your custom Strat sets to different machines easily, loading them from the Strategies Section of the Empire Options menu.
...go to the strat-editing part of the crown menu, and save 'em.
gurachn wrote:
the Strategies Section of the Empire Options menu.
These two are the same beast ?
You can copy, save & distribute the .stg files, but AFIK the player still has to load them up in game (& wait till next turn) for them to be effective. They are only so for the player loading the file, i.e. do not have a game level scope.
Is there a script level interface which can force a .stg file load?
You could auto load a race specific file on start up & even change strats mid game (e.g. when they get shields) by modding the Minister code.
I guess you could do this in a multiplayer game by the gamemaster setting all players, human and AI to his control, running turn 0 alone, manually loading the .stg files then effectivley starting the game at turn 1 having returned control to the players.
Do the doctrines/stg files only need to be resident on the game hosting machine or all player machines?
Has anyone ever tried putting a perl/python shell around the game to simulate user input?
Zwo: I tried sending you a PM a while back, did you ever get it or did I goof up? Back to top
Not sure why you would want to make strats universal for all players.
I've tweaked mine a bit for certain situations and I wouldn't necessarily want to share these tweaks with competitors.
They are also very dependent on play style, and the way that I might want my ships to deal with fighters, or capture/blocade planets, etc. is likely to differ significanly from another player.
There may be some benefits if the game involves one or more AI empires, but I'm not entirely clear how that works. I'm guessing that AI uses what the host has installed.
I would almost suggest that if the host is also playing though, that they stick to the stock (or perhaps Dv's Doctrines), as knowing how AI players are likely to handle different situations could be an advantage. SEV Visual Mods:
Black UI Reduced Size Shipsets Back to top
Zwo: I tried sending you a PM a while back, did you ever get it or did I goof up?
Nothing in the box. Maybe you sent it to the old plain 'Dvoongar'?
I've been gone a lot, and I'll be gone again soon; but when I return I try to catch up.
Artful_Bodger wrote:
You can copy, save & distribute the .stg files, but AFIK the player still has to load them up in game (& wait till next turn) for them to be effective. They are only so for the player loading the file, i.e. do not have a game level scope.
Is there a script level interface which can force a .stg file load?
You could auto load a race specific file on start up & even change strats mid game (e.g. when they get shields) by modding the Minister code.
I guess you could do this in a multiplayer game by the gamemaster setting all players, human and AI to his control, running turn 0 alone, manually loading the .stg files then effectivley starting the game at turn 1 having returned control to the players.
Do the doctrines/stg files only need to be resident on the game hosting machine or all player machines?
Has anyone ever tried putting a perl/python shell around the game to simulate user input?
Okay, I'll consider a .stg file. That'd work for a given player if the game's already in progress.
I don't know about any fancier stuff. How would an AI know it needs new strats, for example?
Besides, if the Doctrines are in effect at the start of the game, everyone's got them.
...
And boy have I had two scares recently!
Scare 1: Ships cruise in and invade planet. Nothing unusual until second troop pod lands - then the invading fleet's other task forces opened up & wiped the planet clean.
Scare 2: Planet launches fighters to oppose approaching fleet. Out of 30, only 4 or 5 engage - the rest go into retreat mode.
Best I can tell, the bug's somewhere other than the strats. If it were the strats, it should be consistent across the board. Sometimes the game just does things I can't figure out. Back to top
I guess you could do this in a multiplayer game by the gamemaster setting all players, human and AI to his control, running turn 0 alone, manually loading the .stg files then effectivley starting the game at turn 1 having returned control to the players.
Do the doctrines/stg files only need to be resident on the game hosting machine or all player machines?
I'll try to clarify (probably fail, knowing me.)
Your strats are yours. They are saved as a permanent part of your empire. The only way they change is if you change them - nobody else can.
Prior to import/export, this was a real pain. If you didn't get good strats at the start of a game, you had to manually tune everything. That issue is solved now, and even if an host starts a game with bad strats, you can still import anything you have previously exported (saved as .stg).
The AI strats are stuck once the game begins, pretty much. One could use the password and log in as an AI, perhaps, and then load alternatives. Don't imagine that's going to happen very often.
I'm curious about private, secret strats, but don't tell ME of all people! Anything too cool to resist just might show up in a later release. Back to top
I double clicked on your light blue name above the avatar, got sent to your SEV home, double clicked on PM composed & sent one.
I just sent another (dummy) one prior to this reply.
The PM was about using the doctrines with DJAS. I had loaded my .stg file up into a game.
I see the strats, not the formations.
Does this mean the formations get saved in another file (or not at all)?
The .stg file solution only works generally if it is possible to force load one (or many) from a modded script, as non-human players obviously can't do it for themselves.
You'd need an enabling script mod to be added as a patch to existing mods for this to work.
Quote:
Something like :
1) get BM, CCMOD, DJAS all updated to look for a D_DOCT directory in their folders.
2) if there was a, say XIATI_DD.stg there, initialise the race with it
else if there was a DEFAULT_DD.stg file present use that
or do nothing (as per Stock).
This code would have to be in the start/setup phase so as not to be dependant upon humans activating their Ministers.
That decouples the automatic use of stg files from the contents allowing later releases to just update those files and not having to change the mods themselves again. A bit like enabling a plug in for your browser.
Do it that way & you can set up different doctrines for different races, both AI and human players.
The scripts/AI know what tech they have etc and there is a final 'cleanup' phase at the end of a turn where the code for the Ministers cuts in. Something like the Research Minister could be modded to load a new .stg file once a tech is reached.
Quote:
So, extending the above
you could have XIATI_DD.stg XIATI_SH_DD.stg XIATI_WMG_DD.stg files defined and the minister modded to load the SH file once shields tech reached 1 and the WMG weaponry appeared.
This may cause a shift from optimal, then short to long range firing tactics through the game.
The Xiati player could be AI or Human (as long as he has his Research Minister on in game)
It all hinges on whether you can load the .stg file via the scripting API. not being a scripter, I don't know, do any of the gurus out there?
As for your scares
1: I've seen it where an assault task force goes in and the bombardment task force sends a big volley of missles/napalm at the same time.
The drop pods take a finite time to land, and the other task forces only cease fire when there are troops on the ground (not in transit). If that bombardment group is out at Max range, it could have a planet killing volley inbound just as your Marines land.
Small conslolation that it won't fire again.
I use 2 Fleets, the heavy hitting planet smashing units go in take out the defences then leave. The second assault Fleet has the marines, swarms of escorting fighters/frigates. The fighting components of that fleet have short range low damage stuff to protect the Marine assault, but not damage the planet any further.
If Fleet 1 'accidentally' glasses the target, Fleet 2 just aborts.
2: Were they all the same fighter type,100% supplied, armed and undamaged? Back to top
Not sure why you would want to make strats universal for all players.
DD strats are better than the default stock.
It doesn't stop individuals loading up their own afterwards.
gurachn wrote:
There may be some benefits if the game involves one or more AI empires.
Like those with agressive and defensive minister styles.
gurachn wrote:
I would almost suggest that if the host is also playing though, that they stick to the stock (or perhaps Dv's Doctrines), as knowing how AI players are likely to handle different situations could be an advantage.
True, he can also enable cheat codes in set up, sneak in some extra research for himself then switch it off again.
He'd have to declare the AI setups, leave the humans at Doctrine as they can load their own later.
In the situation where there are a published set of AI strats & each player is aware of them a variety would work.
This sort of scenario is for the experienced gamers. Back to top
I double clicked on your light blue name above the avatar, got sent to your SEV home, double clicked on PM composed & sent one.
I just sent another (dummy) one prior to this reply.
The PM was about using the doctrines with DJAS. I had loaded my .stg file up into a game.
I see the strats, not the formations.
Does this mean the formations get saved in another file (or not at all)?
Formations are their own thing. One file shared by all - that's it.
I don't think they can be changed after a game commences. but maybe so. If they can be changed, it would change everyone's. Empires don't get their own individual sets. (I was recently dismayed to discover this.)
*The scripts instructing AI's how to pick can be restricted. Stock, I think, only uses like two out of the whole set for each AI. But the actual set is still the same.
Artful_Bodger wrote:
The .stg file solution only works generally if it is possible to force load one (or many) from a modded script, as non-human players obviously can't do it for themselves.
You'd need an enabling script mod to be added as a patch to existing mods for this to work.
Quote:
Something like :
1) get BM, CCMOD, DJAS all updated to look for a D_DOCT directory in their folders.
2) if there was a, say XIATI_DD.stg there, initialise the race with it
else if there was a DEFAULT_DD.stg file present use that
or do nothing (as per Stock).
This code would have to be in the start/setup phase so as not to be dependant upon humans activating their Ministers.
That decouples the automatic use of stg files from the contents allowing later releases to just update those files and not having to change the mods themselves again. A bit like enabling a plug in for your browser.
Do it that way & you can set up different doctrines for different races, both AI and human players.
The scripts/AI know what tech they have etc and there is a final 'cleanup' phase at the end of a turn where the code for the Ministers cuts in. Something like the Research Minister could be modded to load a new .stg file once a tech is reached.
Quote:
So, extending the above
you could have XIATI_DD.stg XIATI_SH_DD.stg XIATI_WMG_DD.stg files defined and the minister modded to load the SH file once shields tech reached 1 and the WMG weaponry appeared.
This may cause a shift from optimal, then short to long range firing tactics through the game.
The Xiati player could be AI or Human (as long as he has his Research Minister on in game)
It all hinges on whether you can load the .stg file via the scripting API. not being a scripter, I don't know, do any of the gurus out there?
Okay, I wouldn't be the guru for that project. I think the mod I'm working on will be all the closer we're likely to get to that dream. I'm calling it "Red Alert" mod, since it pretty much only goes into effect when red alert sounds.
Every AI will have their own strats for a game. Between games, they can even be switched. I got that much worked out, and finished but untested.
I'm also planning a way to add a little variety to AI formations from game to game - but not within a game.
So long as the scripts assign proper strats during the design process, I really don't think dynamic reconfiguration's all that big a bonus. Ships with ripper beams should get point blank. Mesons get short range. Most seekers get long range, and so on.
The strats could well enough be available already - just don't assign the wrong strat to a ship (i.e. rippers assigned medium range).
What gain is to be had could probably be achieved with a lot less work. That's a somewhat fascinating project you describe, but I don't think it's necessary. Choosing the right strat to begin with pretty much covers things for the AI.
I think you'll enjoy Red Alert when you see it. Probably 80 to 90 % of what you're talking about will be achieved on the strat end. Some else'd have to do some script tweaking maybe to get the rest. Back to top
As for your scares
1: I've seen it where an assault task force goes in and the bombardment task force sends a big volley of missles/napalm at the same time.
The drop pods take a finite time to land, and the other task forces only cease fire when there are troops on the ground (not in transit). If that bombardment group is out at Max range, it could have a planet killing volley inbound just as your Marines land.
Small conslolation that it won't fire again.
I use 2 Fleets, the heavy hitting planet smashing units go in take out the defences then leave. The second assault Fleet has the marines, swarms of escorting fighters/frigates. The fighting components of that fleet have short range low damage stuff to protect the Marine assault, but not damage the planet any further.
If Fleet 1 'accidentally' glasses the target, Fleet 2 just aborts.
2: Were they all the same fighter type,100% supplied, armed and undamaged?
Good eye, on # 2. I just checked the replay, since it's available, and sure enough: 6 of the fighters had ordnance and 30 were out. ...Somehow. I was helping defend one AI against another, and we could've made serious fight if all fighters had participated.
The first one? That's a glitch I believe in the shoot/don'tshoot toggle.
I understand shots-in-progress are going to hit. This was different. There was a big delay between the troop pod landings. The first one posted the big funky icon and gave the message "ground combat will take place..."
The delay was so long it generated a second message. The combat ships had long since ceased firing, but as soon as the second pod hit they opened up and never stopped until they'd glazed the planet thoroughly. They were in the proper mode, and then switched out of it. Don't recall seeing that one before, and don't expect it again soon. Back to top
I remember one occasion where a ship somehow got to the battle late. A second battle started and my ships completely forgot about the troops on the planet and blew it to smithereens! feh... Back to top
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