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Spaceempires.net :: Star Wars Mod - A Conundrum :: View topic
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Star Wars Mod - A Conundrum

 
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Atrocities
Shipyard Guru


Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Star Wars Mod - A Conundrum Reply with quote

So here I am working on my star wars mod and I keep running into these little conundrums.

1. Why bother having city facilities like Planetary City since they really serve no purpose and the AI will just mess up the entire concept depending upon start level.

2. I wanted to separate out cargo components into three types, Standard cargo for just transports, Troop berths for small troop contingents on smaller ships. And Ground force Quarters for larger ships.

I wanted transports to use regular cargo containers, while Troop transports use drop ship images for cargo containers, and large ships use the Ground Forces Quarters image. To do that I need to use mounts.

Then it occurred to me why? The AI will only get confused, and players can use regular cargo components to carry anything they want so the whole point to having separate images for separate sized ships is rather pointless.

So I am left to ponder why go the extra lengths if the entire concept can be circumvented so easily?


Where we're going we won't need roads.


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Alikiwi
Space Emperor


Joined: May 09, 2007
Location: Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not that experienced with mounts, but I do know the AI uses them for weapons where available, so surely it would use them for containers, probably if it gave a slight increase in capacity as it should see that as being the 'best' option?

I've vaguely wished I could seperate cargo like that myself. Wink



Venturing into the unknown


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Urendi_Maleldil
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 10, 2005
Location: New York, NY

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could use dummy abilities to get the AI to put the right cargo component on the right types of ships, and you could use some sort of advantage/disadvantage incentive to get humans to do the same thing.

For example, the standard cargo containers could provide a large cargo space to tonnage ratio, but have very little structure (damaged easily) and a combat defense minus penalty. Troop berths could have more limited cargo capacity compared to their tonnage. And ground force quarters could be "armored" with a greater amount of structure compared to their tonnage.

As far as cities go, I think it's an editorial call. If you can't find a way to make them fit into the game, cut it.


Ken vs. The City


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Black_Knyght
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Location: Dark side of the Moon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Planetary City could be something that gives a major advantage in some way, but took time and a LOT of resources to build. Maybe, IF it's possible, allow only one homeworld to start out with one

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Atrocities
Shipyard Guru


Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is, the AI won't cooperate. If you do a high tech start the planets will be filled with just this facility. It sucks. There is no way to prevent this. believe me I have tried. For years.

The AI is so difficult to work with that it frustrates just about everything.

I wish my concepts were able to work, but the AI as is won't let that happen. Sad

So I have had to give up things. A lot of things. Sad


Where we're going we won't need roads.


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Black_Knyght
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Location: Dark side of the Moon

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible to make it a single LARGE facility, and make it require specific tech/levels, to have it built?

Or, barring that, revamp it as a compromise between what you envision and what will work?


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Alikiwi
Space Emperor


Joined: May 09, 2007
Location: Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I can suggest for facilities is to look at the Highly Industrialised facilities in the CB Mod. It has two levels, so that HW start off with the basic one. What I did with Skywalker was to up the level for that, so it wouldn't get used at game start, but still has an upgrade so that it boosts shipyard construction.

I don't think its possible to limit it to one per planet, but if it has system wide abilities, when a human player tries to add a second they will get a warning, but they can still build more if they want. They are expensive to build (very) so no one is going to build a lot of them... Wink



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Atrocities
Shipyard Guru


Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, those are good ideas. Smile

Where we're going we won't need roads.


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john_stamos64
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 26, 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you to a certain extent about the cargo containers. However, I still think it would be neat to have different types of cargo containers to allow for more diverse ships. I wouldn't get upset if human players misuse the various types as long as there are advantages and disadvantages to each type. After all, in times of war, things can be used in unintended ways (like when merchant cargo ships were used as makeshift carriers or troop transports).

I agree with you about the legacy stuctures, but I don't know how to correct this. If you wanted to make the game multi-player only (please don't) you could use a savegame that had been set up just how you like it. I don't know what tools are available to mod designers, so I don't know if this strategy would work with a single player game. If a powerful savegame editor exists, maybe you could create separate savegames for all human vs AI player combinations. I know this sounds like a pain, but it sounds like there are some concepts that you would like to include but can't because of the AI game set up. Of course, a savegame strategy wouldn't prevent humans from overbuilding Planetary Cities, but that's not your problem.

Sorry if none of this makes any sense.


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Atrocities
Shipyard Guru


Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to limit starting games to only 1 facility per empire so players could add what they wanted to their starting planet. What happened was the AI filled all the available slots with that ONE facility which completely negated what I was trying to accomplish.

We really need a lot more control over the AI. Controls like setting the starting number of facilities for players to limiting specific facilities, components, ships to just ONE per empire.

I'd also love the ability to add more than one damage type to a weapon. I would love to be able to set up an ION cannon with multiple abilities such as skips shields, destroys engines and destroys weapons.

I would also love it if the bug that allows the AI to violate the number limits for components. (One only should mean ONE only, not a dozen.)


Where we're going we won't need roads.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhat unfortunately, all those items you're mentioning can easily be done in SE5.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Atrocities
Shipyard Guru


Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Location: PNW

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
Somewhat unfortunately, all those items you're mentioning can easily be done in SE5.


I know, and it kills me.


Where we're going we won't need roads.


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Alikiwi
Space Emperor


Joined: May 09, 2007
Location: Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ar well, we are back to the obvious, wish to hell we could combine the best of SE 5 (even if it's not a lot Laughing ) with the guts of SE 4 and presstoe - SE sex, er what? No silly I said 6 not sex. I don't have a kiwi accent... Rolling Eyes

Guess we'll just have to keep dreaming. Still interesting that there's 5 SE 4 mods in the works though...



Venturing into the unknown


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Black_Knyght
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 19, 2005
Location: Dark side of the Moon

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atrocities wrote:
CaptainKwok wrote:
Somewhat unfortunately, all those items you're mentioning can easily be done in SE5.


I know, and it kills me.


Ditto here! Some of us still really enjoy SE4.

And sadly, SE5 just never had it's appeal to me...


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john_stamos64
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 26, 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur with Black Knight. I still really like to play SE IV. Never liked SEV. Played it twice, un-installed it.

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Noble713
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 24, 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black_Knyght wrote:
Atrocities wrote:
CaptainKwok wrote:
Somewhat unfortunately, all those items you're mentioning can easily be done in SE5.


I know, and it kills me.


Ditto here! Some of us still really enjoy SE4.

And sadly, SE5 just never had it's appeal to me...


I was a huge advocate of SE5...until I played it. It hasn't even been installed on my computer in over a year, if not longer. Meanwhile, even as I type this, I've got SE4 running in the background through Wine. It and Dominions 3 are pretty much the only decent strategy games that run well on Linux, and fortunately they are both AWESOME.


Atrocities, I feel your pain. My own SE4 SW mod is, IMO, rather lame, due to the need to make so many compromises because of AI/engine limitations. I'm pretty much waiting for FreeOrion to mature a bit more and then I think I'll just mod that instead.


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