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Spaceempires.net :: SE Nova Mod Ship Tree :: View topic
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SE Nova Mod Ship Tree
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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: SE Nova Mod Ship Tree Reply with quote

Here's the preliminary tech tree for ships and bases...

Code:

Construction (1)
  - Light Ship Construction (6)
      - 1 Frigate 250kT; Colony Ship 330kT; Small Freighter 300kT
      - 2 Destroyer 350kT; Light Carrier 600kT
      - 3 Frigate 275kT; Colony Ship 360kT; Small Freighter 350kT
      - 4 Destroyer 375kT; Light Carrier 675kT
      - 5 Frigate 300kT; Colony Ship 390kT; Small Freighter 400kT
      - 6 Destroyer 400kT; Light Carrier 750kT
  - Small Base Construction (6)
      - 1 Small Space Station 500kT
      - 2 Small Space Station 550kT
      - 3 Small Space Station 600kT
      - 4 Small Space Station 650kT
      - 5 Small Space Station 700kT
      - 6 Small Space Station 750kT

Construction (2)
  - Medium Ship Construction (9)
      - 1 Light Cruiser 450kT; Medium Freighter 600kT
      - 2 Cruiser 600kT
      - 3 Light Cruiser 475kT; Carrier 900kT
      - 4 Cruiser 630kT
      - 5 Light Cruiser 500kT; Medium Freighter 700kT
      - 6 Cruiser 660kT; Carrier 1000kT
      - 7 Cruiser 690kT
      - 8 Cruiser 720kT
      - 9 Cruiser 750kT; Medium Freighter 800kT; Carrier 1100kT
  - Large Base Construction (6)
      - 1 Large Space Station 1000kT
      - 2 Large Space Station 1100kT
      - 3 Large Space Station 1200kT
      - 4 Large Space Station 1300kT
      - 5 Large Space Station 1400kT
      - 6 Large Space Station 1500kT

Construction (3)
  - Heavy Ship Construction (12)
      - 1 Battleship 800kT; Large Freighter 900kT
      - 2 Dreadnought 1000kT
      - 3 Battleship 840kT
      - 4 Dreadnought 1050kT; Heavy Carrier 1200kT
      - 5 Battleship 880kT
      - 6 Dreadnought 1100kT; Large Freighter 1050kT
      - 7 Battleship 920kT
      - 8 Dreadnought 1150kT; Heavy Carrier 1350kT
      - 9 Battleship 960kT
      - 10 Dreadnought 1200kT
      - 11 Battleship 1000kT
      - 12 Dreadnought 1250kT; Large Freighter 1200kT; Heavy Carrier 1500kT

Construction (4)
  - Baseship Construction (6)
      - 1 Baseship 1500kT
      - 2 Baseship 1600kT
      - 3 Baseship 1700kT
      - 4 Baseship 1800kT
      - 5 Baseship 1900kT
      - 6 Baseship 2000kT
  - Starbase Construction (6)
      - 1 Starbase 2000kT
      - 2 Starbase 2200kT
      - 3 Starbase 2400kT
      - 4 Starbase 2600kT
      - 5 Starbase 2800kT
      - 6 Starbase 3000kT


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


Last edited by CaptainKwok on Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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Jorg
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 18, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like that you've weaved in Carriers into the tree in the way you have =).

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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carriers also have cross tech requirements with fighter tech area, which I didn't include on the above chart.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Myrath
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 08, 2007

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will you be forcing researchers to max out 'light ship constuction' before they can open up 'construction (2)'? or are you planning on making a middle path for that ?

~Myrath


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Ship construction tech areas have requirements that are only based on the construction theoretical tech area. So you could potentially only research a couple of levels of light hulls and move on to medium hulls etc.

However, since all ship sizes are generally useful in SE5, most players will max out ship construction tech areas to maximize their ship's potentials.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Greystar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 08, 2008
Location: 8th Dimension

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
No. Ship construction tech areas have requirements that are only based on the construction theoretical tech area. So you could potentially only research a couple of levels of light hulls and move on to medium hulls etc.

However, since all ship sizes are generally useful in SE5, most players will max out ship construction tech areas to maximize their ship's potentials.


Yeah what I usually do is once I get to what I consider a mid level (a level or 2 higher then when I got the next hull size (I know dif in this mod) I'll divert most of my research points into the higher tech level but still leave a 1% or 2% in the lower level hulls until they are done. But how I'm reading this is the hull size is based on Contruction tech so Once I get contruction maxed I could research whichever sizes I want?

PS) I love balance mod so once this is available I'll probably play with it.


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DarKnight770
Space Emperor


Joined: Oct 03, 2005

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anything I'd like the differences in a frigate and a Dreadnought to be massive. Perhaps not quite a scale as per http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2007/07/30/scifi-ship-size-chart/scifi-ship-chart/
but enough so that it isn't like stacking 3-4 together and getting about the same returns. Something where a single Massive capital ship can really project the strength that several destroyers can't.

I do really like the stuttered growth though. It should help fix the very noticible steps where everyone builds the biggest ships available and counts on their older models being retrofitted and filling in the gaps. This bring efficiency back and forth on what classes to build.


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Myrath
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 08, 2007

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. A dreadnaughts could use at least a 100KT extra in size. Dreadnaughts are supposedly massive in comparison to other ships. Perhaps consider just adding a couple of levels for researching additional size in dreadnaught tech? This makes it pricy in research.

~Myrath


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Crixon
Space Emperor


Joined: Nov 21, 2005

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya i do find for their size that you cant fit too much more on dreads ... there really should be a bigger difference between ship classes i think,like frigates being really small at say 200 kt, destroyers like 300- 400 ish and so forth to cruisers say at like 800, then battleships at 1200 and dreads at like 1600 for example

We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.


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Firzen_Zero
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 05, 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What really offsets the effective ship size growth is the necessity of additional engines and crew. Taking the values from BM 1.14 I made this chart:
Code:

    base kt      -engines     master computer / vehicle systems 1 / vehicle systems 11
fr  250- 300 ->  150- 200 ->  110- 160        / 120- 170          /  130- 180
dd  350- 400 ->  230- 280 ->  190- 240        / 190- 240          /  200- 250
lc  450- 500 ->  290- 340 ->  250- 300        / 240- 290          /  260- 310
cr  600- 750 ->  400- 550 ->  360- 510        / 330- 480          /  360- 510
bb  800-1000 ->  560- 760 ->  520- 720        / 470- 670          /  510- 710
dn 1000-1250 ->  680- 970 ->  640- 890        / 570- 820          /  620- 870
ba 1500-1800 -> 1100-1400 -> 1060-1360        / 950-1250          / 1020-1320


As you can see here the upgrades from dd to lc and from cr to bb are not worth it in the beginning. The upgrade from bb to dn is utterly useless - More cost, less size, easier to hit, less speed. I am not sure how that plays out when you uncouple supply from engines, but it shouldn't be too different. I propose that you add 20 kt to light cruisers, 50 kt to battleships and 150 kt to dreadnoughts and baseships.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember the transitions for the ship sizes are mixed. For example, it's possible to research DN I when BB III is available - in which case they have the same available space after requirements. However, the DN hull has 250kT versus 100kT for BB for possible upgrades.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an alternative size chart:

Code:

Hull (Levels)        Min    Max
-------------------------------
Frigate (3)          200    250
Destroyer (6)        300    400
Light Cruiser (6)    500    625
Cruiser (6)          750    900
Battleship (6)      1000   1200
Dreadnought (6)     1500   1800
Baseship (6)        2000   2500


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


Last edited by CaptainKwok on Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total


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Firzen_Zero
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 05, 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
Remember the transitions for the ship sizes are mixed. For example, it's possible to research DN I when BB III is available - in which case they have the same available space after requirements. However, the DN hull has 250kT versus 100kT for BB for possible upgrades.


Firstly it's BB IV and 0/20/30 more space on BB hulls and secondly those transitions won't be in Nova anyway.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good catch on the tech level. I forgot sometimes I based on 2/3 completion of the previous tech area, rather than 1/2.

For the Balance Mod, I made a change so that DNs have a max engines of 15 and an EPM of 170. This gives them about the same speed profile as before, while giving them the same percentage of space requirements as BBs.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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TeddyBar
Space Emperor


Joined: Apr 19, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the over simplistic research in SE V as a very big negative that takes away from the empire building experience.

Research should be meaningful and not there just to be done. It also should be logical and make sense.

It should be about choices and compromise, when it is, it adds to the game.

First up I think that the research for military space ships and civil research should be split. It does not make sense that a military break through to enable the creation of a larger/better naval ship would have any flow on affect in regards to a freighter.

Secondly the actual usable space within each vessel should be tied into several areas of research.

Where as now the tonnage space is equal to the ships tonnage, the tonnage space will initially be say only 50% of the ships tonnage. Then through research into that line of ship along with say miniaturisation will eventually lead to where the tonnage space is equal to the ships tonnage.

The same goes for the various ship components. For example a cargo space will initially only hold 60% of it’s maximum, and through research into cargo space the player gets to utilise more and more of it.

So what we are saying is that via research we find better ways to make that part that allows us to keep the strength but use lighter parts and/or new construction techniques and as such we get more volume.

Not only do we get to use more of the tonnage but it will now cost us less. So where as now in most things the cost goes up equally with the tonnage, I would like to see that the cost decreases.

The same goes for guns, as it is now, get big gun and we automatically get the little gun for the fighter, that is just gamey.

Anyway, we are about ships here.

I think that each major military ship type should have it’s own research configuration for improving it’s size and tonnage space usage. After all, even if a battle ship is larger and bigger than a aircraft carrier, there would be little about a BB’s design that would cross over to the aircraft carrier.

As such it makes sense to have the Frigate, Destroyer, Light Cruiser etc have their own tech trees.

I also see this adding to the gaming experience by making research part of the game and not something that has to be done.

A player will be more inclined to try and trade technologies, to try and steal them.

It would make espionage a greater component as the player will have to be guard his discoveries more.

I also see that having to make compromises as enhancing the game. Such as do I make a better destroyer that is fast and can deliver a knock out punch or do I go for a bigger BB to match his?

I think I made sense.

Enough for now as no use getting all carried away and exited for nothing.

Cheers,

Teddy Bär


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Kana
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2005

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TeddyBar wrote:

First up I think that the research for military space ships and civil research should be split. It does not make sense that a military break through to enable the creation of a larger/better naval ship would have any flow on affect in regards to a freighter.


I disagree on the mere fact that many military applications and discoveries soon get trasnfered to the civilian sector. Medicine, Safety, Electronics. They have all pretty much had their start in the military, and made there way into civilian life.

No I do agree that what is good for the military, may not also be good for the civilian and vice versa.

TeddyBar wrote:

I think that each major military ship type should have it’s own research configuration for improving it’s size and tonnage space usage. After all, even if a battle ship is larger and bigger than a aircraft carrier, there would be little about a BB’s design that would cross over to the aircraft carrier.


There were some Cruisers, and Battlecruisers converted to Aircraft Carriers in WW2. A Battlecruiser is just a really fast Battleship.


FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV)


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get too caught up in the hull name designations. They're just a rough indication of size and not use/role. That's determined by a ship's actual design.

Usually in SE5 there is a secondary requirement for smaller items. For example, Small Anti-Proton Beams in the Balance Mod (or this upcoming mod) require both the Energy Stream Weapons and Smaller Weapons tech areas.

Tech trading and stealing research are elements that often come into play and are essential elements in multiplayer/PBW games.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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albi_joe
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 19, 2005
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curse you, diplomatic tech!

(no "evil empire" in PBW...

...UNLESS it's an evil consortium!)


There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line!


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Shrike
Space Emperor


Joined: Jun 17, 2006

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It struck me lately that even small BM fighters can't match the combat defense value of frigates or even destroyers, due to the lack of small armor with added defense bonus value. Will this be different in Nova?

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Nath
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 03, 2007

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to see a 'larger' difference in usable space between the ship classes as well. I like Kwok's alternative ship space table here.

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p3d
Space Emperor


Joined: Sep 02, 2008

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second table is much better. However, I'd like to see some large ships available at start as an option - destroyer or light cruiser level 1, but further tech requirements for getting lvl 2 of it (to avoid tech rush)

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Iceclad
Space Emperor


Joined: Dec 22, 2008

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always found it a bit annoying that there are no really meaningful differences between shiptypes. Biggest problem is that basic frigate hull of Empire A is just about the same as Empire Bs frigate. Would be great to see the need to make compromises on what kind of ship sizes you want to have in your fleet and get some extra on them with extra research. Even going so far to see them need less movement points to move one sector so a better destroyer could be slightly faster than another destroyer (only slighty). TeddyBar had some interesting ideas.

Also the annoying bigger is better tends to pop up too often. For example a horde of frigates is mostly no match against a baseship (take same material cost). Even packing those frigates with everything that gives hit penalties and staying in long beam range will see those frigates hit by those massive mounted weapons way too often and seeing them all blown up without any meaningful damage on that baseship. Frigate should be very very hard to hit with a massive mount. Would be good to see mounts having some troubles hitting smaller ships and maybe in exchange see them pack even more punch on similar size ships.

In that last table I'd have to say at least that Frigates are too small to have any meaningful extra space for mods. Also I'd like to see the hull costs of bigger ships higher. Anything else that makes it interesting to go with smaller hull sizes also is a good thing. So one would need to have different sizes for his fleet and not just think how to fit that new shiny dreadnought.


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BlueTemplar
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 27, 2007

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, what about larger mounts decreasing chances to hit? It would be compensated by a much larger bonus in other areas, but due to how chances to hit work (if you go from 20% cth to 10% cth, you've only removed 10% cth, but you'll now have 2x more trouble hitting), this would be a lot more effective against big ships than small ships.

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Zastaver
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 24, 2007

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlueTemplar wrote:
Yes, what about larger mounts decreasing chances to hit? It would be compensated by a much larger bonus in other areas, but due to how chances to hit work (if you go from 20% cth to 10% cth, you've only removed 10% cth, but you'll now have 2x more trouble hitting), this would be a lot more effective against big ships than small ships.


A EVE esqu mount system would work EG. my dn will rape anything. it just cant hit anything doing a decent speed. so massave mounts should outrange all others by a wide margen. but git penatlys up close and vs small ship. and more space on the baseship/DN/BB IMO then ships should outclass anything smaller than them but be MASSAVE investments. and beeing a carrier fan(who isint) thay should scale where the heavy carrier is just as massave as a DN/BB


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BlueTemplar
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 27, 2007

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, what would be the consequenses of a close-range penalty for weapons in SE5? That's an interesting idea! It might make close-range weapons more interesting to use on small ships...

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