Fleet-oriented components for BM 1.10

prisoner881 · Space Emperor Joined: Jul 15, 2007

In going over the similarities between modern fleet-based naval combat and what we have in SE:V, I noted a couple of things that might be interesting to add:

Fleet Command and Control Module - This item would be under the "Vehicle Control" or "Sensor" category. It's function would be to improve the attack percentages of all ships in a specific fleet. Percentages would improve with higher tech levels. Only one component per fleet would be in effect. Make it somewhat large (60kT or more) so the benefits are only worth it in a medium- or large-sized fleet, but make the benefits substantial.

This item is similar in function to the way modern carrier battle groups network their fire control systems together in order to pool sensor resources and weapon allocation.

Fleet Fire Control Management Module - Another fleet-oriented component. This one would increase damage of all weapons in a fleet by a specific percentage, with that percentage increasing with tech levels. Again, make it big and expensive, but give it big benefits. Putting one of these in a small fleet would not be worth it, but in a large fleet it would give great advantage. Put it in the "Weapons" category.

This would be analogous to how modern fire control systems pool weapons, making sure the right weapon for the target is chosen and making sure multiple weapons aren't being wasted on a single, low-value target. The end result is a a "bigger bang" per firepower unit expended.

Fleet Defense Coordination Module - Yes, another fleet-oriented component. It's the same thing as the Command and Control module, only this one boosts defense percentages. Think of it as a fleet-wide ECM module. Similar size and cost penalties, similar benefits as C&C module.

Put all these on the research tree under "Advanced Military" right when you get Fleet Training facilities.

I'd love to hear some feedback on these items to see what others think. Is it even possible to implement these components in the manner I describe?

Fulgrymm · Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure that it is. I think it's still possible for components to have sector abilities applied to them, but the thing is, since it affects the sector, enemies would be affected by them too. Basically negating any advantage. It might work to have those abilities as system-wide functions, but that would mean only one fleet would need the components while the rest just tag along.

albi_joe · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 19, 2005 Location: USA

They were done in SE4, if I recall...

Perhaps they are too far from stock to be in Balance. Who can truly see the inside of Kwok's brain? (Don't answer that...)

CaptainKwok · Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:26 am Post subject:

It's easy to do (with ability scopes) and in fact was even possible in SE:IV.

I did create a few components of that nature for my partially-completed Space Food Empires mod for SE:IV.

It's beyond the scope of the Balance Mod but otherwise they're good suggestions.

prisoner881 · Space Emperor Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Pax · Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject:

tindrli · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:18 am Post subject:

BlueTemplar · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 27, 2007

Yes, and it's not like they would change most of the gameplay. Players already use fleets profusely...

Pax · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:23 am Post subject:

*shakes head ruefully*

None of that matters. You could come up with the most amazing idea EVAR, and it wouldn't matter: the scope of the mod is adhered to, strictly. And those items do not fall within that scope.

Perhaps you should just consider making your own mod?

Fulgrymm · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject:

Agreed. The purpose was never to include concepts that stray vastly from the original game. Kwok has a separate mod for that.

Pax · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject:

Lord knows, I've been thinking of trying out a "balance plus" meta-mod myself - just adding in, for example:

"Legacy Facilities", a la SE4's Proportions mod - some "a little of everything" facilities to fill a planet with.
tons of cross-racial-tech components, hulls, facilities, and so forth
Temporal Spaceyard components for ships and bases

But I've also got a larger, more-extensive mod in mind, too. If I didn't find SE5 modding so ... daunting, really, on that scale ... I'd almost certainly be hip-deep in that. Some of the things I'm thinking of:

"Minor" racial technologies, not as total a change as with Stock racial techs, but useful nonetheless. This includes changing some existing traits (like Hardy Industrialists) to produce enhanced versions of existing components and facilities
Differing-sized facilities
Entirely new facility types - like a "Munitions Factory" whose sole purpose is to produce Ordinance and Supply units. Doesn't distribute them, just makes them. In vast quantities.
cross-racial-tech stuff, as above
heavy use of "negative prerequisites", so if you have an improved widget Y, you won't even see the unimproved widget Y at all. That'd go for hulls, components, facilities, the whole nine yards.
Racial technologies that don't bypass the normal research patterns - getting better Spaceyards, even as a Temporal Tech race, should IMO require Spaceyards technology ... and the base Temporal Tech itself.
mQNP style propulsion (hey, it's my baby, I should play with it now and then)
borrow lots of traits/stuff from prior SE4 mods, whatever seems like it could be workably adapted!

But again - not for Balance. Whichever of those I do (who knows, maybe both!), it'll be an entirely seperate project.

prisoner881 · Space Emperor Joined: Jul 15, 2007

I understand the scope issue. Fleet Components like the above didn't seem like a major change, but I see how that could be a slippery slope.

The problem with this whole argument is there's no easy, automated way to combine mods in a predictable fashion. Copying this into that, overwriting those, editing that over there...it's very manual. I've learned through life to distrust manual procedures because they're prone to error. If a widget can be installed backwards or upside down, it will be. Better to design the widget such that it can't be installed improperly.

Has anyone ever put together anything that would allow you to combine mods via some sort of utility? Does anyone remember the old "BCMod" utility that worked with Star Trek: Bridge Commander? Now that was a way to install and manage mods!

Pax · Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:05 am Post subject:

The problem with that is ... tech levels.

Take the one I'm looking at: I'm throwing out the entire tech tree, and starting from scratch. I'll recycle names and concepts as often as I can, but there's no guarantee that a given tech area will even exist, let alone have the same number of levels OR PRICES PER LEVEL, as in Stock.

...

For example, Organic Armor. As it presently stands, all you need for Organic Armor, is Organic Technology. Not Armor. I dislike this. Organic Technology will disappear, or be reduced only to those items I cannot move to other tech fields.

In turn, Organic Armor will become dependant on having the racial tech level, and upon your technology in Armor itself.

That's not so easy to add to an existing mod. And Stock or Balanced AIs would have absolute screaming fits with it (which is another problem for me to address, as I have zero ability to mod AI - my work will have to be "humans only" for a while, if not forever).

On top of that, I want to shrink the total number of levels in any given tech, making each of the remaining levels in any given field "mean more".

So as you can see, two mods might be very different, and thus irreconcilably incompatible, once you look "under the hood".