Iīve been making some numbers, and they are way better now. There are a few things I donīt understand, though, and they are related with the way weapons increase their damage/level.
- In example: A maxed WMG makes a rough 25-30% more damage than a maxed DUC (22%, to be more exact, some penalties added due to ordnance used). Comparing WMG with APB, it makes only a 20% extra damage, and APB still has better chances to hit...
But, before giving more detailed explanations, some points about my vision of weapon balance:
1.- I see 3 rough levels of direct fire weapons:
-1: D.U.C.
-2: Meson Blaster/APB.
-3: WMG
These (and range) will be used as comparison basis. Note that all weapons are compared at MAX level.
2.- "Ordnance penalties": Ordnance weapons are worse, that is unarguable. But I think that usually they are treated as being worser than they really are. Have in mind that ordnance doesnīt affect weapon performance in combat. It is not like having a -10% to hit. I can build ships without ordnance storages, using the ammo stored in the weapons.
A direct fire weapon has ordnance for 50 rounds. In almost all cases, this is more than enough to finish a battle. With some careful use of Resupply Depots, I can resupply/reordnance my ships easily.
To explain it more easily: If I smash my enemy, Iīll have plenty of time to resupply and repair my ships. If I get smashed, I donīt have to worry about ordnance. A dead ship doesnīt need ordnance.
Even if ordnance storages are used, have in mind that these can be improved with some research, increasing their capacity, hence increasing ordnance weapons eficience. And, since Resupply Tech provides better Resupply depots and supply storages (and, in the long run, Quantum Reactors), it is a very good investment.
My point: Not using ordnance storages, a maxed DUC makes only 22% less damage than a maxed WMG... And an skilled player can easily take this advantage. IMO, this should be taken into account when balancing weapons.
So now, letīs go to some comments about the new weapons balance:
- DUC: As I explained before, I think that DUC should be somewhat less powerful. Iīd suggest it to make an average 25-30 damage at first level, up to a max 85-90 (instead of current 90). This suposses only a reduction of an average 2,5 damage, but will show a good change when comparing with other weapons.
- Meson Blaster: A maxed Meson Blaster only makes 14% more damage than an APB, at a cost of 20% less range and decreased accuracy. In addition, MB is slightly more expensive. Having in mind that both weapons cost the same to research, I suggest to make MB more powerful or cheaper to research. Giving it +5 damage/lvl (instead of current +4) and making it cost +5/lvl instead of +10 (up to a max 150/0/100) could be a good solution.
- WMG: As explained before, a WMG gains only a rough +3% extra damage/level (its base damage has been increased by +50%, but extra damage/level remains the same), so when maxed it is a bit underpowered (EDITED: Not enough powerful as it should be) when compared with other weapons. My suggestion is to increase bonus damage/lvl to +30 or +35 instead of current +20.
- Incinerator Beam: Expensive when compared with APB/DUC. My suggestion is to reduce rad cost to 300 (instead of 450 when maxed).
- Ripper Gun having in mind its cost, very short range and -2X to hit bonus/range, it should gain +5 or +6 damage/lvl instead of +4.
- High Energy Magnifier: Even with the new boost, HEM is still similar to DUC in efficiency, due to that -10% to hit. A HEM is = to 4 APB (weight/rate of fire), but base damage for APB is 60, and HEM/4 is 55. APB gains 5 damage/lvl, just like HEM (20/4), so IMO, HEM should get +20 to base damage (an average 240). HEM is still worse than APB, due to that -10% to hit vs APB bonuses, but when maxed they become somewhat even.
- Shard cannon/Cristalline Torp: I really like the way You have tweaked these, specially CT that now is a unique and different weapon. My only suggestion is to tweak costs so they become more rad-expensive
and mineral-cheap, (in "cristalline style"), something like 150/300 and 300/700 when maxed.
- Time distortion burst: I know that TDB makes an awesome 4X to shields... But it is the "all use" temporal weapon, and it makes way less damage and costs almost double. Temporal weapon already has a lot of "specialist" weapons (alloy burners, shield accelerators), and it really needs some all-purpose punch. IMO, TDB should be cheaper, make more normal damage and less damage to shields.
- Temporal Tachyon Cannon: Like WMG, IMO it should get +20 dam/lvl instead of current +15. Have in mind that this is the "temporal WMG", but it makes the same damage than an APB without its bonuses.
- Temporal Shifter: It attacks all targets... what a waste of firepower to shot this weapon to a fighter instead of an armed ship! make it target ship/base/planet/drone.
- Hyper Plasma Bolt: It is expensive and weak when compared with meson Blaster (It should be somewhat even with MB, due to range and tech cost). Again, I think that it should get +10 damage/lvl instead of +5.
- Acid Globule: Again, Meson is the reference. AG is 4X a MB, but it only gets +2.5X damage/level. So, when maxed, it is noticeably weaker than MB. In addition, it uses ordnance. So, IMO, giving it +15 or +20 damage/lvl instead of +10 is a must.
- Enveloping Acid Globule: Like WMG, iīd suggest +15 or +20 damage/lvl instead of current +10 (I find +10 very poor for such a large and High lvl weapon).
- HyperDense Globule: All organic weapons have a short range, so IMO, this weapon should get the same range bonus than APB, or some +10 - +15 to hit, so it becomes a useful "combo weapon". Have in mind that it is large, slow, makes poor damage and can only target ship/fighter/drone (and, IMO, it shouldnīt target fighters).
- Plasma Missile: PM has now its base damage increased. IMO, this gives more benefit to PM rushers, so I suggest to give it 250-300 base damage (original damage) and +20 damage/lvl instead of current 270-330/ +15. This way, the real bonus is obtained by research.
These are my main comments. I still want to check a few small details, but Iīll do it when I have some time.
Last edited by Grendelio on Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:39 am; edited 1 time in total Back to top
I had couple of comments about just a few of the weapons:
MB vs APB:
I think they are close enough to leave them alone, but a little tweaking would be ok.
The advantage of MB over APB, IMO, is versatility and minor amounts of damage vs range & to-hit. Personally, I don't count cost fully; I would use a more expensive weapons if I thought it was more effective, so it's not as big an issue as damage, for example.
HEM write-up, compared to TTC & WMG write-up:
The HEM is being made equal to APB, but the TTC / WMG is being made better than APB? I don't understand this; I thought they were filling the same "WMG" role.
AG vs MB:
IMO, AG is supposed to only be there to upgrade to EAG. If you are going to flesh out all weapons for organic, there needs to be more bonuses to other racial techs as well, or an additional cost to organic to balance the benefit.
Again, quite a bit of detail and many useful suggestions! This mod will truly become "balanced" with enough of these.[/b] There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line! Back to top
The damage level for DUCs is to allow them to remain a viable direct fire weapon if a player chooses to max the projectile weapons area while trying to use their saved RPs to obtain an advantage in another tech area versus players going the traditional APB/MB route.
I think MB & APB are a wash. As albi_joe mentioned, the MB has a lot of flexibility particularly on smaller ships that can be considered a part of the cost. Not to mention the Small MB counterpart is better than the Small APB.
How is the WMG underpowered? It's damage ratios at range are generally better than either APBs or MBs and it's much more effective versus regenerating components (Organic, Crystalline Armor etc) on enemy ships.
The IB is a bridge tech really. I wouldn't expect it to have much use except for players bridging between a low level APB and into a WMG focus etc. But again it does have value versus regenerating components.
RBs are a specialized weapon. They have a fantastic close range damage ratio. Ships using this weapon really need short or point blank strategies, which really make up for it's accuracy penalty.
The HEM is not intended to be a copy of the WMG. It's marginally weaker than an APB in a damage ratio comparison, but again its more effective versus regenerating components.
The TDB needs to be used with another weapon (such as the Alloy Burner) to maximize its effectiveness. It's very effective versus shielded ships (almost as good as a dedicated Shield Depleter) and it still does normal damage. Overall, the temporal weapons probably need to be used in combinations to realize their true effectiveness.
I added a bit more cost to Organic Weapons to slightly offset their advantage in ship building / resource usage, so I could keep their racial trait at 2000 pts. Organic weapons in general are a bit weaker, but they have lots of other ship advantages to offset this. The EAG is a continuation of the AG, so it has a similar progression. It has an even damage ratio at all ranges which averages out better than an APB.
Keep in mind overall that most racial weapons are probably a bit weaker in a direct comparison with regular weapons - but their ships often have advantages that already improve their survivability as noted above.
- Electric Discharge: Max - 90 - AV:52* - Rat: 1,3 - 0/300/100 (2X damage to shields)
- Plasma Charge : Max - 70 - AV:93 - Rat: 1,55 - 0/300/40
- Electric Discharge: Max - 60 - AV:39* - Rat: 0,975- 0/150/45 (2X damage to shields)
- Ripper Beam : Max - 60 - AV:80* - Rat: 2 * - 300/ 0 /200 (2X range malus)
albi_joe wrote:
A good all-around post!
I had couple of comments about just a few of the weapons:
MB vs APB:
I think they are close enough to leave them alone, but a little tweaking would be ok.
The advantage of MB over APB, IMO, is versatility and minor amounts of damage vs range & to-hit. Personally, I don't count cost fully; I would use a more expensive weapons if I thought it was more effective, so it's not as big an issue as damage, for example.
Meson Blaster makes a 14,5% more damage than APB, but APB has 20% more range and an average +15% to hit. In addition, MB is a 16% more expensive. Even with the versatility advantage (that I donīt find that important), MB isnīt even with APB, but hey cost the same to research.
I know that cost isnīt critically important, since it only takes a certain % of a ship cost. But think that if your weapons are a 10% better, but your ships are a 15% more expensive, your overall result is a 5% disadvantage. Think in fleet terms. What is the real cost of a component when You put several in 100 ships? But my real point is that cost can be very useful to make small balance tweaks (or large ones, like we saw with religious talisman).
albi_joe wrote:
HEM write-up, compared to TTC & WMG write-up:
The HEM is being made equal to APB, but the TTC / WMG is being made better than APB? I don't understand this; I thought they were filling the same "WMG" role.
The "WMG" role is "the large slow firing weapon that makes a lot of damage/round". As Kwok pointed, it is a very good weapon type against cristalline/organic armors, and in a smaller degree against emissive armor. Now, this doesnīt mean that WMG must be equal to HEM/TTC/EAG... I should have provided a more detailed explanation about my "3 level" weapon basis.
Racial weapons are supposed to be worser than their counterparts. This is why I compare the smaller ones with DUC and the "WMG" ones with APB. And WMG must be better... Now think that APB gets +5 damage/lvl. In comparison, a WMG (6X times an APB, due to size/firerate) gets +20/lvl. This means that APB gets a 50% more damage/lvl increase. I find the same with most "WMG" weapons (here I pack many organic weapons too): they have a base damage balanced, but damage/lvl increase is low. In the end, they make a similar amount of damage to APB, but APB still gets that average +15% to hit. So the question is: are the advantages of "WMG" weapons (against special armors) even with a +15% to hit?
In the case of TTC, it is even with HEM. But think that Temporal Tech is "the combo tech". It has Alloy Burners, Shield accelerators... But what do You use to finish the job? TDB makes half DUC damage, and cost double. And the other weapon is TTC. And, funniest of all, the 3rd temporal weapon (Temporal Shifter) just doesnīt need combos. In comparison, the other racial techs get a better array of weapons, so IMO, TTC could get a good boost, making it better than HEM.
albi_joe wrote:
AG vs MB:
IMO, AG is supposed to only be there to upgrade to EAG. If you are going to flesh out all weapons for organic, there needs to be more bonuses to other racial techs as well, or an additional cost to organic to balance the benefit.
Again, quite a bit of detail and many useful suggestions! This mod will truly become "balanced" with enough of these.[/b]
EAG is a "Combo" weapon, and a must one for organic tech. Think that most organic weapons have a short range, so slowing down enemies can be very useful. Now, EAG has a damage ratio of 0,225 (DUC is 1,5), so its only use is to slowdown enemy ships. It cannot target bases, planets or satellites, so it is a very speciallized weapon. What ships do You Slowdown? fast ones that keep at long range, outranging organic weapons: frigates and destroyers, mainly. There is no need to slowdown a cruiser or larger ship. What are the chances of hitting a frigate/destroyer at long range for a EAG? IMO, EAG is somewhat useless right now.
In the case of AG, just look at numbers. AG has a damage ratio of 1,25 (DUC= 1,5), range 100 (DUC=120), and both use ordnance. So, IMO, it really needs some boost (even having in mind that organic weapons have to be slightly worser than the rest of racial techs). Back to top
The damage level for DUCs is to allow them to remain a viable direct fire weapon if a player chooses to max the projectile weapons area while trying to use their saved RPs to obtain an advantage in another tech area versus players going the traditional APB/MB route.
I like the idea of a good viable DUC, even more having in mind that AI loves DUC. But the question is: Souldnīt there be a higher difference between DUC/APB when APB cost 3X times more to research?
My suggestion supposes reducing average damage by 2,5 points only, so DUC passes from a ratio of 1,5 to a ratio of 1,455. Only an overal 3% damage reduction. And have in mind that DUC is a 40% cheaper! this can result in saving about 5-7% cost in a DUC frigate/destroyer, in example (Frigate with 3 DUC, destroyer with 5). Maybe some slight cost reduction in APB could be fine, in addition?
CaptainKwok wrote:
I think MB & APB are a wash. As albi_joe mentioned, the MB has a lot of flexibility particularly on smaller ships that can be considered a part of the cost. Not to mention the Small MB counterpart is better than the Small APB.
How is the WMG underpowered? It's damage ratios at range are generally better than either APBs or MBs and it's much more effective versus regenerating components (Organic, Crystalline Armor etc) on enemy ships.
APB vs WMG: WMG makes 19,5% more damage (pretty nice) but APB has an average +15% -or more- to hit (Explanation: What is the real combat range? specially between ships, almost all combats are resolved at optimal-max ranges. This means a +15 to +30 to hit bonus for APB when compared with any other direct fire weapon. usually, it will be +15, but skilled players can use "max range" strategies with smaller ships, to get that +30% bonus...). My expression "underpowered" was uncorrect (I edited it), it should be stated like this: Is it a WMG powerful enough when compared with APB? 19,5% extra damage and better performance VS certain armors may be not enough when compared with +15/30% to hit bonus.
Now add weapon mounts. I think in mounts and I think in APB. It really shines when combined with mounts. With a Heavy Ship mount (the average one), APB gets +90% damage, so it becomes better against special armors. And, where a WMG gets a -70% to hit at max range, APB gets a -35%, being way more accurate. The average range bonus advantage increases to a +17,5% or more.
This is critical with weapon plataforms. They must be effective at max ranges, since if transports (or planet bombardment weapons) get close, battle is over. More advantages for APB.
Meson VS APB: I pointed all the advantages of APB over meson prevoiusly. About size/versatility, it is way more troublesome a 30KT vs 60/70KT weight difference (APB vs "WMG" weapons) than a 30KT vs 20KT...
About small Meson/APB, I agree that small meson makes more damage, but it is much weaker vs emissive armor (the bane of fighters), and range is way more important when talking about fighters. A SAPB at max range outranges PDBlasters, and get an extra +10 evasion in exchange of a -5 to hit. Having in mind the high ROF of PDW, +10 evasion is pretty good. So more range = more survival.
CaptainKwok wrote:
The IB is a bridge tech really. I wouldn't expect it to have much use except for players bridging between a low level APB and into a WMG focus etc. But again it does have value versus regenerating components.
Well, I admit that having in mind that IB is in the path of WMG and now thit I realize that it provides small IB too, it is fine the way it is.
CaptainKwok wrote:
RBs are a specialized weapon. They have a fantastic close range damage ratio. Ships using this weapon really need short or point blank strategies, which really make up for it's accuracy penalty.
That is perfectly clear. My point is that even the awesome damage ratio they get at point blank range may be a bit low having in mind that it isnīt very easy to get into point blank range, and out that point blank/short range, the weapon is not very useful. But again, thinking that it comes with WMG in the long run, I think that your numbers are correct.
CaptainKwok wrote:
The HEM is not intended to be a copy of the WMG. It's marginally weaker than an APB in a damage ratio comparison, but again its more effective versus regenerating components.
Same coments like APB vs WMG. And, as I said previously, I never expected HEM or similar weapons to be like WMG, my suggestions are made taking into account that WMG must be at least a +20% more powerful. Increasing WMG damage/lvl by 10 as I suggested should give a +8,5% more performance when compared with APB (from +19,5% to +28%). In the same way, "WMG" style racial weapons should get a similar bonus.
CaptainKwok wrote:
The TDB needs to be used with another weapon (such as the Alloy Burner) to maximize its effectiveness. It's very effective versus shielded ships (almost as good as a dedicated Shield Depleter) and it still does normal damage. Overall, the temporal weapons probably need to be used in combinations to realize their true effectiveness.
I think I answered this before, but Iīll explain my point: It is very dangerous to rely only in combos to destroy your enemies. If the alloy Burner fails, How do You pierce your enemies armor with a TDB? And better not to think about "special" armors... Temporal players rely too heavily in combos, and if combos fail, they are in deep shit. Just think in fighters without shields, or in ships without shields and with some extra PDW... Break the combo, and temporal weapons are very weak.
Similar thoughts with small TDB... With the addition that small TDB gets completely screwed against Emissive armor (1 single piece is enough), and STDB are bested by SDUC fighters.
CaptainKwok wrote:
I added a bit more cost to Organic Weapons to slightly offset their advantage in ship building / resource usage, so I could keep their racial trait at 2000 pts. Organic weapons in general are a bit weaker, but they have lots of other ship advantages to offset this. The EAG is a continuation of the AG, so it has a similar progression. It has an even damage ratio at all ranges which averages out better than an APB.
Same here than with previous "WMG" weapons, with one extra thought: Organic weapons have short range. And they start with a shorter range, and their progression is slower. The longest range direct fire weapon (EAG) gets max range at organic weapons lvl 15! At least, organic weapons get Seeking Parasite... But think that I can easily outrange AG ships by +30 with DUC (or even APB)! (And AG is a weak weapon, even with "racial weapons must be weaker" standards). Hence, my suggestion about better to hit bonuses for Hyperdense Globule too.
CaptainKwok wrote:
Keep in mind overall that most racial weapons are probably a bit weaker in a direct comparison with regular weapons - but their ships often have advantages that already improve their survivability as noted above.
I usually compare "WMG" weapons with APB, and the lower versions with DUC, so I think that the levels should be correct.
CaptainKwok wrote:
PMs effectiveness versus competitor torpedoes needs to be tested.
My point here is mostly to give the bonus in a more levelled manner, instead of a base damage bonus -that benefits rushers a lot-. In addition, Seeking Parasite is slightly more powerful, so +25 damage sounds fine.
And before someone points the fact that seeking parasites are pretty nice, have in mind that organic weapons have a pretty low range, so IMO, it this is compensated with SP.
Iīll try to make some testing to torps/seekers (when i get some time, it takes me a lot of time to test and translate!!!), but most of my points when this thread started (about torps/CSM) are valid. Back to top
I think Enveloping Acid Globule has a minor typo, appearing at the top of the list instead of with the other organic weapons. There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line! Back to top
I think you are getting to the +/- 10% area, where things will not ever be perfect. Having a race survive and win may be as much on luck and intel as 10% damage on a weapon.
One thing... you responded to my post of AG / EAG as if I was talking about HG (Hyperdense Globule), not EAG (Enveloping Acid Globule). I accepted your post on HG as valid.
EAG is a natural continuation of AG, and therefore I consider AG just a "filler" until EAG shows up.
I didn't know about the extra research for organic weapons - can you post comparisons? There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line! Back to top
I don't have much time to comment right now, but...
The DUC is ok. The AI usage of DUCs is mostly a remnant of pre-1.07 versions.
I did revise all the smaller weapons yesterday and their stats can be found in the updated components.zip file attached to this post.
I also made tweaks to the WMG, providing it a bit more overall damage. I know it's effective damage per kT at max range is less, but I think it's puncturability will make up for that. I'd try a battle with Massive Mounted APBs vs Massive Mounted WMG at maximum range with shield regenerators and/or racial armor. I think the APB will have to pump in a lot more overall damage. Lastly I treat the WMG as level 2.5 of weapon tech development - a level 3 treatment would force its
I modified the Temporal Tachyon Cannon the most by giving it the same accuracy boost as APB and increased it's base damage amount. It is now probably the best direct fire beam weapon when all things are considered.
I dropped the Acid Globule to 30kT and modified it's damage a bit. It'll be more handy now.
I think you are getting to the +/- 10% area, where things will not ever be perfect. Having a race survive and win may be as much on luck and intel as 10% damage on a weapon.
Well, Kwok has worked a lot with balance, so donīt expect big balance issues. Iīm trying to sharpen things a bit, and most of my suggestions suppose average +/- 5% changes. But think that the overall difference between a maxed DUC and a maxed APB can be around 25%, and the difference between APB/WMG can be around 20% (If my numbers and suppositions are right), so 5% changes can be big.
It is very hard to balance such a large number of weapons having in mind all factors...
albi_joe wrote:
One thing... you responded to my post of AG / EAG as if I was talking about HG (Hyperdense Globule), not EAG (Enveloping Acid Globule). I accepted your post on HG as valid.
EAG is a natural continuation of AG, and therefore I consider AG just a "filler" until EAG shows up.
My mistake. In any case, I see a relation between all 3. A useful HG is a must for Organic players. Comparing AG with meson was jut a question of ranges (they start/end with somewhat similar ranges), I should hve compared AG with DUC though.
Now my point is that AG is not a filler, it is the only average all round weapon comaprable with APB/DUC. Plasma/HyperPlasma are the "Short Range-High Power weapon", While electric/lightning are the "Anti-Shield" weapon. And the problem is that Organic doesnīt get something better till lvl 10 (In direct fire weapons, remember that Organic has a pretty good seeking parasite). At 40K RP/lvl, it is easy to get outranged by DUC and, maybe, by some APB players.
So, having in mind that Organic seems to be the "Horde of Hard Armor/Short Range weapon Ships" (that is a nice role), IMO its average weapon should be a bit more powerful (AG has a ratio of 1,25; DUC, 1,50 and 20% more range and cheaper...)
albi_joe wrote:
I didn't know about the extra research for organic weapons - can you post comparisons?
If Kwok sets Organic/Cristalline weapons cost in 40K/lvl, a fast comparison (not time to do more now) could be like this:
- A maxed DUC is obtained 4x times faster than a maxed Shard Cannon/Acid Globule.
- A maxed APB is obtained 33% faster than a maxed Shard Cannon/Acid Globule.
All racial weapons are cheaper than common ones, but the research is more slow paced because You get the entire pack in a single go. Donīt be fooled by the early advantage of common weapons, in the long run racial weapons (specially organic/cristalline weapons) are a very nice choice. Back to top
Kwok, I think that the files You have posted are not the correct ones... New DUC have 80 range, and APB 90...
CaptainKwok wrote:
I modified the Temporal Tachyon Cannon the most by giving it the same accuracy boost as APB and increased it's base damage amount. It is now probably the best direct fire beam weapon when all things are considered.
OMFG!! I want Temporal Weapons!!!
CaptainKwok wrote:
I dropped the Acid Globule to 30kT and modified it's damage a bit. It'll be more handy now.
Nice! Iīm eager to see he new files and the new WMG too! Back to top
I've got to find the time to make a religious / psychic race and outrange all this stuff late-game. There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line! Back to top
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