Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: High level torp tweaks
High level torpedo weapons should get a boost to evasion and speed. 60% evasion and 60 KM/s speed is not enough when facing maxed PDW with +50% or more to hit bonus due to high level sensors (up to +75%).
AM torps are fine, being the lower level. But Quantum Torps should get 70% evasion and 70 KM/s speed, and Gamma Torps should get 80% evasion in addition to their 80KM/s speed.
A lvl 11 AM torp is cheaper, makes more damage and has more HP than a lvl 1 Quantum Torp. There isn´t a reasonably advantage for Quantum torps until you get lvl 3 (when You get +20 range, being able to get range advantage), and the average cost/level for quantum torps is 200K RP... So IMO, here is another reason to improve them.
After Quantum torps, spending a huge amount of RPs, You get Gamma Pulse Torps... That start with 120 range and have a higher weight (50KT instead of 40)... May this be a Typo, Kwok? I don´t see a reason for this weight increase.
They make a nice amount of damage, and have a pretty low cost, but now You find that the ultimate torp is outranged by any maxed DUC or APB (Even worse: WMG!) with mounts...
Now, let´s compare a maxed Gamma Pulse Torp (RP cost about 3,3 million) with a maxed CSM (RP cost about 0,6 million):
- Both make similar amounts of damage (having in mind increased firerate for GPT).
- Both have same weight.
- Both have 20HP, but GPT get +10 evasion and +30 speed.
- CSM outranges GPT by +50.
I don´t see the point of spending 2,7 million RP just to get a small evasion and speed bonus, at the cost of 50 range.
In addition, while CSM ships fight against PDW with about +15 to hit in the early game, GPT face PDW that have a far higher range and damage, with a +75 to hit...
So my suggestion is to give 70 evasion/speed to Quantum torps, and 80 to GPT. In addition, GPT should have 40KT weight and get +10 range/level up to a max range of 170, so they can outrange ship mounted weapons. Back to top
A level 11 AMT should be equal to a level 1 QT. I'll boost the QT structure to match. The QT is intended to be a heavier warhead version of the AMT so I'll keep the speed/evasion the same. The bonus here is the damage and range.
The GPT is an interesting case. The reasoning for the shorter range is to minimize exposure to PD, which along which is synergistic to its evasion and speed amounts. In many cases where a PD weapon might get 2 chances to fire at a torp, it will usually only get 1 versus a GPT. Lastly, even at 50kT the damage ratios for the GPT are better than QT as well. A slight increase in damage might be warranted depending on its actual effectiveness. Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod Back to top
A level 11 AMT should be equal to a level 1 QT. I'll boost the QT structure to match. The QT is intended to be a heavier warhead version of the AMT so I'll keep the speed/evasion the same. The bonus here is the damage and range.
Some extra damage could be fine, too. AMT make a bit more damage. And the extra structure will make QT more endurable, so it will be a good solution.
CaptainKwok wrote:
The GPT is an interesting case. The reasoning for the shorter range is to minimize exposure to PD, which along which is synergistic to its evasion and speed amounts. In many cases where a PD weapon might get 2 chances to fire at a torp, it will usually only get 1 versus a GPT. Lastly, even at 50kT the damage ratios for the GPT are better than QT as well. A slight increase in damage might be warranted depending on its actual effectiveness.
A 4 layer PD flack frigate (1 bomblet, 1 flak cannon, 1 PD cannon, 2 PDblasters) will destroy all GPT shot by a 3 GPT armed destroyer. 150KT of ultimate torps made useless by 80KT of PD.
Correct me if I´m wrong. PDW shot each 0,5 seconds, so in 0,5 seconds a GPT has moved 40KM at 80 KM/s speed. PDCannons/PDBeams have 70 KM range, so they get 2 shots, 1 at range 70, and a second one at range 30. Same for PDBlasters. Flak cannons/Bomblets will shot twice too, as long as GPT are fired from a distance>80KM. If I´m going to shot at such short distance, better research incinerators or WMG, that are cheaper in RP.
IMO, GPT need more range and a bit extra evasion (or, maybe, some extra structure). With mounts that increase range of direct fire weapons, the main advantage for GPT (range) is lost. Why research a GPT, when researching a WMG is cheaper and I can get a similar range using mounts? A WMG with heavy mount on a cruiser makes 900 damage/shot, has 140 range and cannot be stopped by PDW. Not to talk about Dreadnoughts/baseships with massive ship mounts...
BTW, why Bomblets only have 50 ammo? shouldn´t they get 100, like all weapons in this mod? Back to top
Your PD defense setup would be effective, but would likely only take out 2 out of every 3 GPTs in your scenario. That leaves 1 that gets through with each volley, whittling down the PD frigates and exposing the other ships to more serious damage.
In terms of WMG vs GPTs... a massive mounted WMG requires a big ship of a minimum 1250kT. Three equivalent cost 3xGPT-armed 400kT destroyers can fire at max range while being very difficult to hit by the WMG. The lone big ship will also require a substantial amount of PD or have nearby PD dedicated ships with it. This increases the cost of the WMG using fleet etc. I'd say more of a strategy/usage issue then anything else.
Your PD defense setup would be effective, but would likely only take out 2 out of every 3 GPTs in your scenario. That leaves 1 that gets through with each volley, whittling down the PD frigates and exposing the other ships to more serious damage.
In my tests using combat simulator, all GPT were destroyed. Only a few of them, in some situations, managed to hit the PD frigate, so I suppose that it may be related with range settings for both ships (I usually set max ranges). Probably, a fast meson frigate attacking at short range will get serious trouble with GPT...
CaptainKwok wrote:
In terms of WMG vs GPTs... a massive mounted WMG requires a big ship of a minimum 1250kT. Three equivalent cost 3xGPT-armed 400kT destroyers can fire at max range while being very difficult to hit by the WMG. The lone big ship will also require a substantial amount of PD or have nearby PD dedicated ships with it. This increases the cost of the WMG using fleet etc. I'd say more of a strategy/usage issue then anything else.
Note comments about torpedo tech cost in tech balance thread.
I agree, the massive mount is an extreme case. But at level 1, GPT has the same range than an unmounted WMG, and is outranged by a any destroyer with mounts. Until lvl 4 is reached, the GPT doesn´t get a range advantage. And at level 4 it has its range maxed, so I don´t see the reason to spend more RPs in maxing the weapon just to get a bit extra damage.
Of course, reducing torpedo tech cost makes most of my suggestions about increasing evasion/speed useless (this is a solution that I hadn´t observed), since they were based in the fact that WMG is currently better and cheaper to research.
I still think that it could be a good idea to give some extra range to GPT. It can allow a more strategic use of ranges: At max range the weapon is less effective, but own survival is increased, and at shorter ranges it is possible to avoid more PD, increasing damage at the cost of getting more fire from direct fire weapons. Back to top
In your PD simulation did the missile ships have any PD? My assumptions were based on that it would likely take 3 PD Blaster shots to destroy a GPT (2 hits, 1 miss) or 1 Bomblet Missile (if the firing ship had a PD it should be able to take out the Bomblet Missile some of the time) or 1 Flak 50% of the time.
One good factor for using frigates as PD platforms is that they occupy a small size, so they can still fire PD at 20 range etc. A large ship (usually battleship size plus) wouldn't be so lucky. Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod Back to top
Bomblets/flak cannons get 2 shots, as long as GPT is fired from 90-100+ range.
In the case of bomblets, the first shot was destroyed by enemy ship´s PDW many times, but the second one is out of enemy´s PDW range and gets its target. In some cases, the combo bomblet/flak cannon results in an overkill: as the bomblet flies to its target, the flak cannon shots at the same missile...
First shot for flak cannon is usually a miss, but second one is usually shot at range 30 or even 20 if ship is very fast (as the ship moves towards GPT), so it gets an average -75 for evasion+range against a +95 for combat sensors+flak bonus. So, in most cases, it takes a second GPT.
In the meanwhile, the flak cannon gets its fisrt shot at range 70. Probable miss.
Now, the third GPT in the salvo gets shot by 2 PDblasters and the second shot from PD cannon (this one usually at range 20-10, again due to ship speed), so it is a sure dead in most cases.
Even if Flak cannon fails its two shots, the remaining 2 PDblasters and PD cannon still get 4 shots, so they can destroy 2 GPT with a bit of luck.
Another factor to be taken into account is the use of several ships. Several flak frigates defend each other, increasing their efficience thanks to the high rate of fire of PD weapons. A group of torp ships will shot their salvos spreadly, one after another, giving more chances to PD ships to destroy all torps. Back to top
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:45 am Post subject:
I'm afraid I must question whether this even is an imbalance. If one devotes an entire ship to PD, just how much protection should it provide? If a PD ship could only provide protection against a ship of the same class, it would be silly to build it.
In this example we have a PD ship nullifying a ship one class larger. I think that's about right. If it were 2 or 3 classes different, that might be questionable. But this seems to be very close to ideal, in my opinion.
I haven't done any testing - I'm just going by what's written here. And I have less experience, so I may be missing something. But theoretically, if the PD ship is to be useful, it should perform at least somewhere in the ballpark of this example. Back to top
I'm afraid I must question whether this even is an imbalance. If one devotes an entire ship to PD, just how much protection should it provide? If a PD ship could only provide protection against a ship of the same class, it would be silly to build it.
In this example we have a PD ship nullifying a ship one class larger. I think that's about right. If it were 2 or 3 classes different, that might be questionable. But this seems to be very close to ideal, in my opinion.
I haven't done any testing - I'm just going by what's written here. And I have less experience, so I may be missing something. But theoretically, if the PD ship is to be useful, it should perform at least somewhere in the ballpark of this example.
The inbalance appears when comparing GPT with WMG/any direct fire weapon with mounts or with other seekers. GPT has a very short range, losing the advantage of range that seekers have. And PDweapons/combat sensors are very efficient when GPT appears, making GPT less efficient.
2 examples:
-A cruiser with APB/heavy mount makes an average 130 damage/shot at max range (140). A GPT makes 225 average damage at 150 range... but it shots 2X times slower, so the mounted APB makes more damage, and its shots have to hit... But they cannot be stopped by PD weapons. In addition, a mounted APB has a lesser weight and doesn´t need ordnance... And is cheaper to research.
-A CSM has 200 range, while a GPT has 150... 25% less. In KT/Dam/second, the GPT makes an average 9% more damage than CSM. CSM has 50% evasion, 50KM/s speed while GPT has 60% evasion/80 speed. CSM are way cheaper to research and IMO that 25% extra range compensates the lack of speed/evasion and a minimal 9% extra damage (NOTE that when used at max range, the CSM makes 11% more damage than GPT since CSM doesn´t lose damage with range...). In addition, CSM tech provides small rocket pods for fighters.
I think that it is very clear that GPT need a serious boost, specially a range boost. Back to top
It really depends on how the GPTs are being employed. Small ships mounting GPTs will be very difficult to hit at the max range of any direct fire weapon - I would even say their GPTs have a better chance of hitting targets than the direct fire weapons.
Joined: Apr 16, 2007 Location: here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:39 am Post subject:
Sorry I took it wrong. Off the top of my head, I know there's one torp I never bother with much. Maybe it's the GPT.
I do appreciate the homework & math you put into your suggestions and recommendations. I know that there are many considerations: cost, tech cost, range, ROF, etc. and it's easy to overlook something when striving for balance.
I wish I had more experience with the higher techs, but it's just not fun for me to play anything other than the low & slow tech games. Even so, techs are implemented way faster than at any time <1939 or >1945.
Edit: Kwok, you mindreader. I was just going to suggest boosting something other than the ususal range/damage set to give the weapon its own personality. But I haven't done the homework and decided not to toss out a "raw" suggestion here. Back to top
It really depends on how the GPTs are being employed. Small ships mounting GPTs will be very difficult to hit at the max range of any direct fire weapon - I would even say their GPTs have a better chance of hitting targets than the direct fire weapons.
Note in v1.07, GPTs are travelling at 100 km/s.
Agree. But I still find a bit weird the fact that the "powerful long range weapons" are CSM and plasma missiles, that are cheap and obtained early in the game (Yes, I know that plasma missiles are not that cheap, but GPT are supposed to be the ultimate seekers...)
Adding some range to GPT will not hurt. If You want to hit more with GPT, just get closer (and suffer). If You want to be safe, at the cost of some hits, shoot from a distance. Back to top
I do appreciate the homework & math you put into your suggestions and recommendations. I know that there are many considerations: cost, tech cost, range, ROF, etc. and it's easy to overlook something when striving for balance.
I must do so. Have in mind that Kwok has done all that maths with all weapons/components/techs in the mod, so I must be really sure when I find something weird. It wouldn´t be nice to make him lose his time with not pondered suggestions after all the hard work he has done. And, in most cases, there are allways things not taken into account by me, since this game is quite complex... Back to top
I think the problem here is that I never intended the GPTs to be the ultimate seeker - but something that was equivalent to a QT or PM in damage but favoured another sort of tactic. Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod Back to top
I think the problem here is that I never intended the GPTs to be the ultimate seeker - but something that was equivalent to a QT or PM in damage but favoured another sort of tactic.
Having in mind that it is probaby the most expensive seeker tech, it should be the ultimate seeker
Now the thing is, if You want something different, why not increase differences with CSM/Plasma/racial torps? You said that GPT could need some extra damage: Instead of that, make it lighter (40KT), so it keeps the line of torps, and avoid the "short range torp/missile" look it has currently.
I´d suggest to go further: Make it even smaller, making less damage to compensate (A kind of "ripper beam" 30 KT torp), so players can build ships that shot 10+ torp salvos (with a painful ordnance cost...). Make it radically different. Make it excel it that role. Back to top
'I´d suggest to go further: Make it even smaller, making less damage to compensate (A kind of "ripper beam" 30 KT torp), so players can build ships that shot 10+ torp salvos (with a painful ordnance cost...). Make it radically different. Make it excel it that role.'
I was thinking 30kT with about a 1/3 of the current damage... and did I mention "Skips All Shields" damage type?
Ouch!
Even without "skip shield" damage, the small size allows large torp salvos that can easily saturate PDweapons, making it very dangerous even with base 60/60 speed/evasion...
And the drawback of heavy ornance use make it a very interesting and tricky weapon. Back to top
I´ve been thinking about the way seekers are being shaped, and I really like it. With the new GPT, a player will have 3 different choices of seeker weapons:
-CSM: The sure bet. Well rounded in range/damage, and provides small rocket pods. Cheap to research, but somewhat expensive in resources.
-Plasma: The longest range weapon, and with a good resource cost. Better than CSM, but no small version and somewhat expensive to research.
-Torps: Shorter range than CSM, but very effective. The most expensive seeker tech, but it is cheap and brings small AMT in addition.
The most interesting is that players will have to choose wisely what tech research, and use different strategies due to the different nature of the three branches. Not easy to get plasma and GPT at the same time... Back to top
I haven't run the numbers, but they look good at a glance. There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity. I am firmly on one side of that line! Back to top
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