Ship Revision Proposal

CaptainKwok · Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: Ship Revision Proposal

Since one of the biggest complaints/requests is for more levels of ships and I'm already messing around with the vehicle sizes file - I'm going to extend some of the ship levels...

The smaller ships will retain their 3 levels at 25kT per level, but from Cruiser onward they will increase in 50kT chunks instead. This means 4 levels of CR; 5 levels of BB; 6 levels of DN; and 7 levels of BS. Of course the tech costs will be adjusted somewhat.

I could go with 5 levels and 10kT increases for the small ships - but is that really a worthwhile upgrade? And do we want the AI potentially running back to its SYs to add a single armor or something?

damador · Space Emperor Joined: Oct 20, 2006

it will be good to clearly made difference between hulls

for example

tier one

could have tonage

100
120
140
160
180
200

then tier 2 should start at least at 180 or even 200

and have at least 180/200 tonage

then the properties within tier should change with better techs - like in stock the defense bonus etc should depend on the hull tier level

Kana · Space Emperor Joined: Jan 15, 2005

My whole thought, and what I'm seeing in relation to my HH mod....is why is there any overlap on ship size between classes at all...I truely feel that there should be either a gap or a progression between the classes, unless of course the overlap is just for purposes of variety between different research doctrines of the empires...

IE my Destroyer is 100kT, and someone wants a Heavy Frigate that is 100kT. Yet if the FG is a cheaper hull cost, is harder to hit, requires less engines, then why even build the 100kT Destroyer.

I would give each class the same number of levels, but their tonnage increase between levels is smaller or larger based on the the class from small to larger respectively. Also I would consider even leaving a slight gap of either 5kt or 10kt or something along those lines between the classes to prevent overlap.

My 2 credits....

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

I think anything below 20 kT increase per level would be unfeasibly small. Though I have wondered about having Frigates, Destroyers and Light Cruisers all be at 25 kT increase per level... I just don't get any motivation to develop Destroyers - especially with my EXP tweak meaning I really want to try and preserve ships I build. The new engine tweak may change this, but Light Cruisers had just as much limits as Destroyers for LS, CQ, Max Mv yet had far more tonnage - if I wanted superior evasion I'd build a Frigate.

Anyway, I certainly agree that higher tech ship hulls have their size improvements be spread out more. LCruiser and below... I'll leave to your judgement taking balance into account. The Science of using Frigates...

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:12 am Post subject:

There will be no overlap and the min and max sizes will remain the same. Overlap is not wanted because the mod focuses on keeping roughly the same proportions of space for engines, weapons, etc. for ships.

albi_joe · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 19, 2005 Location: USA

Adding BS to what was a wonderful mod, let alone ENTIRE LEVELS of BS...

And the fact that people will willingly work to acquire the BS in the game...

What should I say? Razz

Seriously, good idea. I'd love to see how it turns out.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:38 am Post subject:

Psieye:
Ship sizes in the mod if you can't tell already like ending on nice numbers like 00s or 50s - hence the prevalence of 25kT increases... Razz

One benefit of destroyers is that the level 3 hull gains access to the large mount while retaining its speed and defensive modifier... and if you have level 3 CQ/LS - you've opened up another 20kT of space on them for extra junk.

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

The_Doctor · Space Emperor Joined: Nov 28, 2006

Sounds like a good idea Smile

The_Draf · Space Emperor Joined: Jan 16, 2006

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

Hmm... a test shows that it is possible to replenish a ship's crew - they have to sit over a planet with the correct race's population, possibly with a space yard present. Though speaking of low crew, ships were still firing at half speed when at 0 crew (lots of Toxic Injectors)...

Mmm... preparing a saved game where I can demonstrate bugs sure is looming like a chore... Gotta do it to help debugging I guess.

Thighzen · Space Emperor Joined: May 27, 2006

Speaking of a ship overhaul, I think the frigates defense bonus is too high. They are too hard to hit with anything other than seekers to make larger ships worthwhile. Even with level 6 combat sensors on my ships and no ecm on enemy ships, the amount that my ships miss is quite ridiculous.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject:

It appears that the greater speed of the frigate also plays a role in its defensive attributes so a reduced defense modifier might not be so bad. Would you be able to guess which percentage of shots are missing and the approximate range?

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

Well-controlled, tight formations of many Frigates will inherently be hard to take down, yeah. They'd be better at tackling both seekers (less incidents of every point defence firing on the same seeker overkilling it) and direct fire (superior evasion). Due to their superior max speed, it would be very hard to get in close to wreck them too (especially if armed with long-range seekers micromanaged properly).

I can rely on the AI being dumb enough to not take advantage of this and charge them in to death, but against a human opponent... well I suppose you'd have to get some Frigates of your own to escort your bigger ships and accept that having Frigates is essential for skirmishes in space. Assaulting planets and bases - that's where big ships are desired over lots of little Frigates.

Come to think of it, the inherent fact that bigger ships are slower means they shouldn't be running around chasing stuff - they're supposed to head straight for somewhere and do their job, while letting small fry take on small fry. Unescorted big, clumsy ships perhaps are meant to be sitting ducks to agile 'small fry'. "Bigger isn't always Better"

Um... possible tweaks... maybe a single change of Frigates having +25% evasion instead of +30%? Assuming the above analysis is the sort of situation SE V's 'original flavour' is trying to keep, then we shouldn't nerf Frigates too much. Maybe we're all just stuck in SE IV mode where Frigates were just as fast as Light Cruisers on the turn-based square grid of combat - there it clearly was better to have bigger ships.

Hmm... given this maybe ship mounts could be tweaked to give a tiny edge in hit% and range (say +5km for Large Ship Mount, etc) to try and make things fairer for bigger ships? Of course, the other mounts should be given similar boosts in hit and range - we do want Bases etc to far out-range ships afterall.

Kana · Space Emperor Joined: Jan 15, 2005

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

CaptainKwok · Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject:

I think I'll need to boost up the crew strength modifier - it looks I reduced to 0.1 for some sort of test I did and never stuck it back up. Razz

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

Ahahaha, that would explain XD

But stilll, how does "Physically Strong" add to this? Does each crew member get +10 strength when defending?

Actually, this would be quicker if you told me which .txt file the relevant numbers are in ^^;;

Thighzen · Space Emperor Joined: May 27, 2006

I'm not really sure how often my ships would miss. The range was 110 with APBs. I noticed and got especially annoyed with it two days ago and now when I play it doesn't seem like they are missing as much. I will play some more and let you know if I was just being crazy when I posted before.

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

Hmm... 110 range with APBs surely would miss a lot yes. Lv 6 Combat Sensors is just enough to match a Frigate's innate 30% evasion, so you'd be missing 1/4 of the time at that range.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:17 am Post subject:

Back on topic.

Much to my chagrin - I was forced to choose between nice 50kT intervals for large ships or equal number of tech levels. I went for equal number of levels. It's ok though, my doctor called me and said even though I had to give up 50kT intervals, I'm still going to live. Razz

The chart:

damador · Space Emperor Joined: Oct 20, 2006

looks good

LC could start at 3 DE

CR at 3 LC

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

Nah, that would mean everyone has Lv 3 DS and Lv 3 LC. Not everyone uses these smaller ships and those who do should have something to show that they care about these sizes. Lv 3 DS is special in that it hits 400 kT. Ought to make players work to get that as compared to others who want to just go straight up to Cruiser+

It makes sense to have everyone get Lv 3 Frigates - everyone has a use for the fastest ship in the game, and this tech also boosts Colony Ships. DS and LC - let's keep them as optional to max out. Big ships aren't always better as we've discussed so one should be able to attain them reasonably quickly.

One thing I do wonder though... how will Heavy Freighter be affected, since it's tied to Battleship tech?

damador · Space Emperor Joined: Oct 20, 2006

and bases/starbases Smile

btw in stock also cariers should be different - 1.19 changelog fix the stock carrier/heavy carrier level to 10

Psieye · Space Emperor Joined: Dec 03, 2006

Say, where do you find changelogs of non-patch-released versions? As in, where is the changelog for 1.19?