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Spaceempires.net :: Balance Mod v1.20 Alpha Available! :: View topic
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Balance Mod v1.20 Alpha Available!
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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Likely that is what happened, I'd researched troop weapons to L6 getting the size 6 weapon. The new scheme needs a L10 research to get the size 6.
This means that there a 4 'blank' research levels to get through.

Perhaps add a 20 point Weapon platform PD element, fires as a 10 point blaster, but can engage troops on the ground for the spare slots?

The original (stock), 6 research levels, 6 weapon sizes is one of the main reasons to research it -you get decent marines without a major research effort.


Last edited by Artful_Bodger on Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total


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Loudo
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 21, 2015

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Tractor Beam and Repulser Beam both require the "Tractor \ Repulser Weapons" tech, but the name of the tech is currently "Tractor\Repulser Weapons".

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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a sort of problem.

I set difficulty to High, give bonuses to NPC factions, etc, etc, etc.
Huge map, high amount of NPC empires, limited resources.

End result - I swallowed 4 other empires in the beginning of the game (they started war first, i just finished it ^.^). Played for maybe several centuries of game, got over 50 systems colonized, 15-20 dyson spheres, several even fully built over. I intentionaly left most of the map untocuhed and severed my tiiiny-tiny 40% of the map from the rest of it. When I fully explored it found 1 Drushoka empire occupying maybe a dozen systems (about ame space I left them in before severing myself from the rest of the universe), another empire occupying 4 star systems, 3rd one with 2 systems and 2-3 more empires with one system.

When I hit them with spies I saw remarkable result - each of them barely had 3000-4000 income of each resources and laughable tech levels.

Sooo... question... Balance Mod uprgaded AI significantly, then why such tiny acvitvity of NPCs? By that time at the very least rest of the map was supposed to be crammed with life, fighting or allied with each other, instead I saw ocean of untouched stars.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much effort has been put into developing the AI to handle limited resources mode. The combination of a high bonus and limited resources is particularly bad because the AI's extraction and construction rates are much higher. They will tend to build as if they are "rich", but they decline rapidly once they run out of resources.

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="CaptainKwok"]Not much effort has been put into developing the AI to handle limited resources mode. The combination of a high bonus and limited resources is particularly bad because the AI's extraction and construction rates are much higher. They will tend to build as if they are "rich", but they decline rapidly once they run out of resources.[/quote

Ouuuuuuchhh. That what I was afraid of. Kinda sad - limited resources mode is a lot of fun.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a fun mode for sure, but very hard to script an AI to with the mode requiring so much micromanagement and "forward" thinking. Smile

Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is drone launcher suppposed to be able to launch fighters?

Also, wouldn't it be more logical for ground troops to be bigger capacity then fighters?

UPD

This becomes ridiculous. Fightes are dropped on the planet surface with ample ordinance and supplies but refuse to attack enemies with anything but direct energy weapons >.<. Seekers of any kind - they just refuse to shoot them. Sometimes refusing to attack even with those.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carrier hulls have a built-in ability to launch fighters at a much reduced rate even if they have no Fighter Bays. This was done to encourage the use of the carrier hulls as carriers.

---

When I added the small seeker weapons in v1.20 as true seekers, I didn't intend them to be able to target troops so they don't have them listed as a target type (as they would always hit 100% unless I created a new series of small PD weapons which I didn't want to do). So now that they are technically direct fire, I'll add troops back to the target type list with the next update.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
Carrier hulls have a built-in ability to launch fighters at a much reduced rate even if they have no Fighter Bays. This was done to encourage the use of the carrier hulls as carriers.

---

When I added the small seeker weapons in v1.20 as true seekers, I didn't intend them to be able to target troops so they don't have them listed as a target type (as they would always hit 100% unless I created a new series of small PD weapons which I didn't want to do). So now that they are technically direct fire, I'll add troops back to the target type list with the next update.



Well... Carrier's ability adds versatility but the 40 % launch bays requerment kind of bums it a bit. *Pondering a bit* actualy I like this idea. Encourages to use specialise troops if you wanna use carrier as dropship, leaves option to use it if you don't have specialise correct drone\fighter carrier as a substitution... Hmmm. And 40% still leaves quite a bit of space for Ship to ship weaponry\defences... Damn. Mighty good idea!

---

Oh, I see. TYVM Smile

Tho now I have a bit different question

What exactly is this supposed to mean? Cause I am a weeee bit stammered, bummed, dumbified and O_o-ed by this.




Also, how does resource % affects game? It seems it's still same basic 2000 per turn for Lvl 1 facility for 90% and 135%.


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that screenshot from a limited resources or regular resource game? It may be an event bug... someone else had reported the same.

---

For resource extraction, basic calculation is:
2000 x planet resource value x race modifiers x other modifiers

Ex. 2000 x 90% = 1800 before other modifiers
Ex. 2000 x 135% = 2700 before other modifiers

Note the net resource production posted for a planet includes the maintenance cost of the facilities on the planet as well.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Chikonatla
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 14, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:19 pm    Post subject: Star destroy Reply with quote

in this last version i can not use star destroy ships,i build several ships with nucleonic torpedos and when i tryed explode enemy stars it doesnt work.they do not have building to prevent it.and i tryed test it on some neutral stars and on my own star Smile , and it doesnt work.star creation work wormhole creation and close work too. but cant destroy a star ...what a shame.

and one more bug? or stupid AI...playing on hard but AI is still totaly stupid.they sending colony ships ,small number and bad equiped ships to my defended wormholes. why are they doing that if they cant even do some dmg?(they waste time and resources) if it is possible can you try do some ai script for avoid unbeatable humans systems ? Very Happy

and one more thing i found on.if i have technlogy for close wormhole+system gravitional shield facility..computer cant kill me ever..its end game(i will win on the end )...i have no idea if AI can do same.but if he does it will be end game also Very Happy ( nobody will win ).me or AI will not be able to open wormhoel to enemy system .


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Chikonatla
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 14, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: aliances Reply with quote

When i made alliance with one empire all my wars with rest of empires in galaxy was gone, and they never war back again it must be a bug.+ the second empire tryed invite to ally every few turns all others empires even if in alliance setup was seted : new ally member cant be added ever ( or something like that).
i tryed kicked out my alliance member out of ally and i succes so i was only one in ally.and still no wars.Very Happy.strange bug.
alliance should dissapear.but it doesnt.
and enemies empries made no alliances so far.i am afraid they are not able to do it even if they are all together in peace against me.

can you loook on it please ?Smile


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this thread for the Star Destroying fix:
http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopict-10220.html

Accidentally introduced in the posted v1.20 Alpha.

---

The problem you describe is actually due to the hard-coded pathfinding algorithm used by the game. I can script the AI to not target colony ships or other ships for destinations in hostile systems or to give a direct "warp" order through a hostile warp point. However I can't see which path a ship will take, so if the destination is a "safe" system but the only path the game finds is through a hostile system then the situation you describe can happen. I have no way from a script perspective to see what warp points or systems that a ship might go through on its way to its destination.

---

The last strategy you described is a tactic know as turtling. Not exactly a thrilling way to win. The AI will use Shield Gravitationally facilities and potentially close off all hostile WPs as well. So it is possible for a stalemate in this situation.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: aliances Reply with quote

Chikonatla wrote:
When i made alliance with one empire all my wars with rest of empires in galaxy was gone... can you look on it please ?Smile


I would recommend not using Alliances. The hard-coded rules regarding Alliances are fundamentally flawed. For example, once you are in alliance all your empire's personal relations with other empires are voided. Your diplomacy is technically controlled through the Alliance. For these kinds of reasons I have never fleshed out the alliance responses for AI players.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Chikonatla
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 14, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

components.txt

i changed it to 5 (4.3,6) in SNT

Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := 1
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := 5
Weapon Type := None


it still doesnt work .have no idea where to do it i never did anything to any file in this game Very Happy


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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
Is that screenshot from a limited resources or regular resource game? It may be an event bug... someone else had reported the same.

---

For resource extraction, basic calculation is:
2000 x planet resource value x race modifiers x other modifiers

Ex. 2000 x 90% = 1800 before other modifiers
Ex. 2000 x 135% = 2700 before other modifiers

Note the net resource production posted for a planet includes the maintenance cost of the facilities on the planet as well.


That was regular resource game.

Also on the game I took that screenshot I am suddenly stuck. "Player 4 taking turn" during calculation and that sign been there for like 10 minutes. Not the case of pressed "alt"

UPD
Started new game - same situation with every planet but starting ones. Starting ones are 100+%

UPD
1 Minaral mine, 1 Farm and 1 Refinery.



Any way to fix that on my own?


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Loudo
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 21, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the value ranges for finite resources are being used instead of the usual percentage value ranges.

In the Settings file,
Planet Value Low Percent
Planet Value High Percent
Planet Value Low Resources
Planet Value High Resources

should be grouped together in the file, the default settings for % are:
0 and 150
whereas the default settings for finite resources are:
500000 and 5000000

The homeworld value ranges are separate, which would explain why you're seeing normal (~110-130% at High I think) values there.


I don't know if that is what caused your hung turn, but those are excessively large values for resource production.


Edit: For clarity, the path to the file is something like:
spaceempiresv\SE5\GameTypes\Balance Mod v120+\Data\Settings.txt


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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loudo wrote:
It looks like the value ranges for finite resources are being used instead of the usual percentage value ranges.

In the Settings file,
Planet Value Low Percent
Planet Value High Percent
Planet Value Low Resources
Planet Value High Resources

should be grouped together in the file, the default settings for % are:
0 and 150
whereas the default settings for finite resources are:
500000 and 5000000

The homeworld value ranges are separate, which would explain why you're seeing normal (~110-130% at High I think) values there.


I don't know if that is what caused your hung turn, but those are excessively large values for resource production.


Edit: For clarity, the path to the file is something like:
spaceempiresv\SE5\GameTypes\Balance Mod v120+\Data\Settings.txt



Hmm, that's weird.


Here what I have

Code:
 
Planet Value Low Percent                                              := 0
Planet Value High Percent                                             := 150
Planet Value Low Resources                                            := 500000
Planet Value High Resources                                           := 5000000
Asteroids Value Low Percent                                           := 50
Asteroids Value High Percent                                          := 300
Asteroids Value Low Resources                                         := 100000
Asteroids Value High Resources                                        := 1000000
Plr Planet Value Low Percent                                          := 80
Plr Planet Value Medium Percent                                       := 100
Plr Planet Value High Percent                                         := 120
Plr Planet Value Low Resources                                        := 1000000
Plr Planet Value Medium Resources                                     := 2500000
Plr Planet Value High Resources                                       := 5000000


Seems things are ok in that regard


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Chikonatla
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 14, 2015

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

please check my problem with stars destroying your fix doesn´t work for me.

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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chikonatla wrote:
please check my problem with stars destroying your fix doesn´t work for me.


Did you change that in Mod' folder? not for vanilla game?


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CaptainKwok
Balance Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I think is happening is that you're using a saved game setup file where the map portion was created with the finite resource setting. So even though you've switched to the regular resource mode, the planet values are not re-generated, just set to %.

Homeworlds are usually generated in addition to an existing system to meet size/distribution requirements at the start of a game. So they would be set to the regular % range.


Space Empires Depot | SE:V Balance Mod


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Chikonatla
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 14, 2015

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talassar wrote:
Chikonatla wrote:
please check my problem with stars destroying your fix doesn´t work for me.


Did you change that in Mod' folder? not for vanilla game?


i did ,but after load game it doesnt work.


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Chikonatla
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 14, 2015

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reinstaled SE5 , modified again comonent.txt and it worked now . i have no idea what was wrong before. HURAY stars are exploding Very Happy



edit:it was laged and it posted several times cause i thought it didnt posted Very Happy sorry:)


Last edited by Chikonatla on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total


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ekolis
Virtual Guru


Joined: Aug 04, 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the beacons of our worlds... uh, stars... are lit up in celebration!

That's no space station - it's a spreadsheet!


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Talassar
Space Emperor


Joined: Jan 15, 2015

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaptainKwok wrote:
What I think is happening is that you're using a saved game setup file where the map portion was created with the finite resource setting. So even though you've switched to the regular resource mode, the planet values are not re-generated, just set to %.

Homeworlds are usually generated in addition to an existing system to meet size/distribution requirements at the start of a game. So they would be set to the regular % range.


Hmmm. I just generated map from scratch and it worked. Pretty odd since every generated map among saved is post 1.20.


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