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Spaceempires.net :: NON-SPOILER Thread on the Space Empires at War Mod :: View topic
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NON-SPOILER Thread on the Space Empires at War Mod
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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to say that as far as I see, if you leave these guyas on planet, their stuff works. On board ship less than sure.

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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
I tried to say that as far as I see, if you leave these guyas on planet, their stuff works. On board ship less than sure.


Yes, that's about what I remember. I'm glad they've caught your interest. I haven't messed with the Honchos since November.

There may be exceptions to the rule - I didn't research and test all Honcho abilities. Eventually, I'll need to test every last ability, and see exactly which ones work on planets, and which (if any) work aboard ship. I'll need to test and see if they work correctly, or squirrely too.

Then there'll come a decision: they should either be pulled from the mod altogether, or revised entirely. The "planet" Honcho idea is one I find mildly distasteful, although some players might like something like that.

Anyhow, that's a question for later on.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Planet side Honchos act in a similar way to the Mobile Facilities over in CCMod. (They are tagged onto weapon platforms rather than troops).
Perhaps tagging Honcho type abilities onto an Aux Bridge component is better for ship abilities?

On CCmod the concept of ship and base borne research was also used. Rnl had major issues with those, whatever code was embedded in the game just didn't work properly and he had to drive the whole thing by scripts to get it working.
I'd simplify things by cutting them out - too much work to debug.

Also don't allow multiple planets in the same hex. It leads to game crashes when things like system robotic factories start being built.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:

I'd simplify things by cutting them out - too much work to debug.

We're in agreement.

I did think of one more alternative: I could strip them of all powers and nearly all cost, and leave them in for anyone who wants little toy leaders to assign and move about.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now if you could do a script that transferred all ship board experience to a Honcho at a training facility then transfer that Honcho's experience to the ship crew when not in orbit, things might get interesting. If your Honcho is an 8 point troop, you can use it as your (poorly armed) away team to boot.


What needs to be prioritised is getting the save games working. Without saves you can't run long games or backup if there are crashes and lockouts.

Last one I tried generated a Romulan AI, but a Hydrogen/Gas breathing one ? The Klingon was Rock/Oxygen.

When I try to generate an empire, it offers the Trek, Romulan and Klingon pictures for race type, but just the TNG fed ship set.
The AI Kingons & Romulans I have met both use the correct ships.
Yet to meet a Fed AI.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
Now if you could do a script that transferred all ship board experience to a Honcho at a training facility then transfer that Honcho's experience to the ship crew when not in orbit, things might get interesting. If your Honcho is an 8 point troop, you can use it as your (poorly armed) away team to boot.


What needs to be prioritised is getting the save games working. Without saves you can't run long games or backup if there are crashes and lockouts.

Oh wow - I thought we had that resolved.

Okay, fire up SE5. Click on "New Game". You're not really going to start a new game, but click on it anyhow. Choose the SEAW Mod, and proceed.

Now it'll go to the screen for starting new games, okay? When it does that, go down to the lower righthand corner and hit "Cancel". This takes you back out to the main menu area. Hit "Load Game", and select the SEAW game you saved before. *


Quote:
Last one I tried generated a Romulan AI, but a Hydrogen/Gas breathing one ? The Klingon was Rock/Oxygen.


You should not have the Romulans available in the "Empires" folder unless you intend to play them yourself. There is no SEAW AI for them. I have only written AIs for Starfleet and the Klingons.

Quote:
When I try to generate an empire, it offers the Trek, Romulan and Klingon pictures for race type, but just the TNG fed ship set.
The AI Kingons & Romulans I have met both use the correct ships.
Yet to meet a Fed AI.


There is no "TNG" fed empire. The "Starfleet" empire folder is all there should be.

You need to clean out all empires you won't have in your game from your Empires folder. They belong in the "unused" folder. The only Trekcivs which can be put in the "Empires" folder are the one you choose to play (if you make that choice), and the Klingons and Starfleet. Whatever's left needs to be removed, if you put it in there. It'll only screw things up. That's what the "not in use" folder is for - to keep the empires not being used in a given game.

If you have any more trouble, or questions, let me know and I'll try to break this down step-by-step.

In order to save time, I'll give an example, my present game.

I am playing with no "neutral" empires. I chose "high" for the number of players. Now before the game started, I knew that this would mean a total of 13 empires in play. You can check the read-me for the numbers.

I went and chose the 13 empires I wanted in my game. I'm playing Romulan. This leaves 12 more. So the folders in my "Empires" folder are:

Romulan
Phong
Norak
Starfleet
Terran
Ukratal
Klingon
Jraenar
Eee
Xiati
XiChung
Abbidon
CueCappa
Default

(Default needs to be there no matter what - it does not count as an empire.)

After I put the empires in the "Empires" folder, I started my game as planned. The game cannot randomly generate a Sithrak, for example, since that empire is not in the folder. It must choose from the empires in the mod's "Empires" folder.

---

* Alternatively, one can actually start a new game, and then from within the new game hit "load game" and load up the saves. That's just a waste of time. All that counts is that you tell the game you're starting a new game of SEAW. After you do that, you can load up any saved SEAW game.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now since shipsets were brought up, I'll take the opportunity to tell folks what I did. The "Starfleet" shipset is a combination of all three Fed shipsets available in the local "shipyard". It was a whale of a project getting the combination working.

Most of the models are used - only a couple got left out because I didn't like them. The Oberth model got left out because it loaded up all crazy. I like the ship, but it was vertical rather than horizontal, and on top of that it was huge, too big to even fit on the screen properly. I had to go back and take it out.

Of course, if you really want to see all the models I included, you'll need to play quite a while as Federation, and unlock 'em all. Alternatively, you could play as other empires for several games, and probably sight them eventually. I THINK I have the AI programmed to research and use everything, but that's not easy to test.

I also moved things around a bit, since I didn't agree 100% with the way some of the shipsets were arranged.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there are parties waiting for the release of the full mod, I'd appreciate hearing from you. The silence from those who've downloaded the 0.98 version is hardly motivating.

With no help, I'm on my own, just as before, for playtesting. The test game is fun, but rather draggy timewise. I think I've fixed most of the minor issues the Starfleet AI script has shown so far. I need to complete some more turns before I make the remaining adjustment.


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*hides in corner*

Oh wait... I'm certainly interested to see it.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marhawkman wrote:
*hides in corner*

Oh wait... I'm certainly interested to see it.

Thanks. As I recall, you know a think or two about SFC. I think you'll appreciate the weapons and hulls, at least, when the time comes.

I think I may have a way to get the hull mix I was shooting for with Starfleet and the Klingons. The way things are now, every time a new hull comes available, they go nuts and use it for at least 3 designs instead of just one or two. Other than that issue, things with them are almost exactly as I intended when I was scripting them.

I'm having an awful time plotting how to do the Romulans. There are so many different ways they could be played. It's hard to choose just one, but without an understanding of persistent variables I can't easily get a script to pick one of several long-term strategies and remember it from turn to turn.

That's an issue with most of the Trekcivs, of course, but with the others there are generally only two or three obvious strategies. It's manageable.

Thanks for holding on. I can't promise anything, but I'll try to pry myself away from play testing and get back to scripting a little more.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still around.
One thing I have noticed is that Federation tech races don't get small weapon versions of their phasers - the full sized stuff is available in the unit design screen most of those just don't fit. I ended up having to research phased polarons just to give the Marines something useful to shoot with.

The research effort time it takes to get to a high level of warp cores and legacy hulls means that a human player of a standard race will be fielding WMG equipped dreadnoughts by the time Picard's shiny new Enterprise comes out of the yard.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I have indeed been a long way down the trek research tree...


Something happened after I analysed a captured destroyer :

Previous boarder design:


Tried to upgrade shields :


Note the larger hull size.
If I make a copy of that 480 kt oldBoarder design and manually upgrade the shield and generator components, it's OK.

Current medium light hull research level is 4. The analysis of that destroyer seems to have confused things.


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never seen that error before... BUT... there's an old glitch where the game will try to give you non-existent tech levels. It comes up most often when analyzing organic or crystal hulls in stock. If you're not an organic race, the game will give you a tech level for the hull itself regardless of your current tech level.

Anyways, as for the personality of the Romulan Star Empire, I'd make them moderate, but I'd give them more of a preference for research and intel than average.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it has something to do with that, I'd analysed an organic destroyer.
The 'don't understand the tech' error message is due to this mod, so whatever causes that check is getting confused.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
And I have indeed been a long way down the trek research tree...


Something happened after I analysed a captured destroyer :

...

Note the larger hull size.
If I make a copy of that 480 kt oldBoarder design and manually upgrade the shield and generator components, it's OK.

Current medium light hull research level is 4. The analysis of that destroyer seems to have confused things.


Okay, I wasn't aware of the bug for analyzing organic and crystalline hulls. Now that I know about it, it explains some of the things I've seen in my own game. Twice I've had "advances" in Medium Hull Construction which didn't boost the size of my Light Cruisers.

The bug there is just from SE5, but I went ahead and looked into the mod files. You've stumbled onto a bad entry I had in the mod. The tech for Destroyers, "Medium-Light Hull Construction", goes four levels deep. The actual Starfleet Destroyer hull itself permits 20 levels. I wasn't sure what I'd end up doing with Starfleet's "normal" Light Cruisers (their tech stops short), and I had thought I might need to compensate them a little more with an extra DD level. Apparently I never got back and fixed the hull leveling. That's why you were permitted to "see" an hull above level 4. I fixed it now to stop at 4, like everyone else's DD hulls.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
I'm still around.
One thing I have noticed is that Federation tech races don't get small weapon versions of their phasers - the full sized stuff is available in the unit design screen most of those just don't fit. I ended up having to research phased polarons just to give the Marines something useful to shoot with.

The research effort time it takes to get to a high level of warp cores and legacy hulls means that a human player of a standard race will be fielding WMG equipped dreadnoughts by the time Picard's shiny new Enterprise comes out of the yard.


That is all as it should be. The majority of the Game targets a TOS atmosphere, and the interval between TOS & TNG. (Quantum Torpedoes show up early for balance purposes.)

Legacy hull research is only needed early on, to give the Trekcivs an early game edge. Pursuing legacy hulls to any serious depth is very expensive, and should normally be considered a luxury. (In order to test them, of course, they need to be researched.)

Anyhow, with experience players will learn which hulls they can afford to chase at which stage of the game.

Starfleet does have a couple of drawbacks. Their ground forces are more difficult to get up to strength, and they can never obtain weapon mounts (unless they take General Trek). It's a matter of balance, and (hopefully) the drawbacks will give them a Starfleet-like character as well.

I see you've discovered a few components which should be treats for SFC players. I must refrain from discussing them in this thread, but it's exciting to see them in use.


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Artful_Bodger
Space Emperor


Joined: Aug 23, 2009

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weapon mounts appear not to work on Fed ships at all. I'd found the shield imploder tech, researched L1 mounts & put it on a WP, but the L1 mount for the ship didn't show.

It seems you can get a small disruptor, not phaser though. The point is that a lot of trek tech turns up in unit design screens yet it is totally unusable due to size differences. If they are not supposed to be there, block them.

Trek weaponry is seriously supply and ordinance hungry. Ships drop out of a major combat due to supply exhaustion. You can't trust single ships in strategic combat as they'll burn up all their supplies firing puny phasers and torps against real shields then get stranded with no juice to move later.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Artful_Bodger wrote:
Weapon mounts appear not to work on Fed ships at all. I'd found the shield imploder tech, researched L1 mounts & put it on a WP, but the L1 mount for the ship didn't show.


I'm wondering how you unlocked the weapon mount tech. Maybe you took "General Trek"? Must have, if you have access to disruptors. I haven't tested that route yet myself.

No matter what you've got, you can never mount phasers & some of the other Trektech weapons.

Quote:
It seems you can get a small disruptor, not phaser though. The point is that a lot of trek tech turns up in unit design screens yet it is totally unusable due to size differences. If they are not supposed to be there, block them.

That's an issue early, and even later, depending on who you're playing. There are units which can mount all those things, and the game doesn't have a way to distinguish whether or not they are available to a given player at a given time. They can only be restricted by unit type ("troop", "fighter", "drone", etc.) They actually are "supposed to" be there. After you've researched the larger units, you should be able to squeeze in some of the larger stuff, although you might not have room for much more.

Quote:

Trek weaponry is seriously supply and ordinance hungry.

Ah, you noticed! Trekciv players need to find ways to deal with the issues. The phasers, in particular, are enormously power hungry, at higher levels.

In addition to simply packing extra supply storage, there are assets which become available. The higher levels of warp, for example, and some other goodies which I won't mention in this thread. Even so, some of the Trekcivs will need to plan offensive operations with care, and take logistics into account. The Klingons, for example, can really run up against the trade-off between ordnance-consuming torpedoes, and their disruptor weaponry.

The logistics will favour the defender in a campaign, since it will be easier for him to resupply, following battles. If the campaign is expected to be long, the offensive side will need to skew their designs accordingly, and the defenders may be able to skimp on some things, making more room for combat equipment.

Quote:
Ships drop out of a major combat due to supply exhaustion. You can't trust single ships in strategic combat as they'll burn up all their supplies firing puny phasers and torps against real shields then get stranded with no juice to move later.


Engine selection can have a big impact. If you research Ions to some depth, you can still obtain decent speed, while packing a lot more juice. I tried to give each type of engine its own personality, a little bit. Ions pretty much rule when it comes to endurance and cost. You may have noticed the AI continuing to use them on some designs, after other engines become available.

Another approach is to try to pack on so many weapons that you can kill enemy ships quickly. There are a lot of decisions to make, many trade-offs in SEAW ship design. Many designs will turn out to be situationally strong or weak.

If you'd like more suggestions, or more specificity, we can continue in the spoiler thread.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Micro Spoilers Reply with quote

Going by the view counts, there are some people exercising discipline, and refraining from viewing the spoiler thread. I have to say I appreciate y'all's wisdom and restraint.

Now there are some things which could be counted "nice surprises", but will confront a player straightaway. I don't think it'll do too much harm to mention some of them.

Movement behavior has been altered. Larger craft will tend to accelerate and turn more slowly than smaller craft. At the extremes, the effects cannot be missed. Even deceleration rates can make a big difference, although they aren't available without reading the VehicleTypes.txt file. That side'll have to be learned by observation.

Now the game has a hard-coded stop-dead-in-your-tracks feature. No matter what, when that feature kicks in, a ship comes to an abrupt and immediate halt. The rest of the time, ships comply with the entries for deceleration rates. Those that can decelerate well will have a tighter turn radius, even compared to a ship with an equal turn rate which decelerates poorly. You'll see.

I know I'm in the minority, but to me a proper drone rams. The drones in SEAW are geared accordingly. Unless there's some enormous, gaping chasm in engine technology, drones will have no difficulty overtaking ships. That's not the end of the story, however. Drone encounters will nearly always have an element of suspense. Drones don't decelerate or turn very well (the small ones do much better than medium and large). Consequently, unless it's head-on or right up the tailpipe, drones can be evaded. I've seen medium and large drones miss a battleship because they approached at a bad angle, or because the ship went into a turn. The small drones won't often miss a big, sluggish target like that, but they can easily miss destroyers under the proper circumstances.

Furthermore, the hulls of the Trekcivs have their own trends, and the Legacy hulls can be very ..."individualistic", shall we say? I don't know how often it'll come up, but it is conceivable that hull selection for a given model could be based on mobility traits. It is hoped that in time players will develop techniques to take advantage of maneuverability, when it is available.

Another thing that's immediately in one's face is the separation of "basic sensors" from "combat sensors" in the tech tree. You can now focus on one or the other for a while, in seeking some advantage.

The cloaking business is way different in SEAW. In single player games, it won't make a whale of a big difference, beyond some design inconveniences. When playing against humans, watch out! There's a new cat-and-mouse element, and he who masters it the firstest and the mostest will enjoy an advantage. That's all I'm sayin' in this thread.

Mines are different too. Initially, I was just going to remove them, but I changed my mind. Mines are all about what? Secrecy! The secrecy issues make their employment double-edged. There are drawbacks. The veil of secrecy penalties can reduce population loyalty and tolerance to war. Mines should be employed sparingly in SEAW, most sparingly.

The chokepoint issue, which can plague SE5 games, has been addressed a couple of ways. The maps included tend to have fewer "natural" chokepoints to begin with, and ship operating ranges can be extended sufficiently to "go the long way 'round" in nearly every scenario.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:48 am    Post subject: First Update Reply with quote

A few small improvements have been made.

https://www.mediafire.com/?6jrll3ynvperg55

Nothing there will break a savegame. However, if you are playing Gorn or Romulan, some of it will screw with your ability to keep vehicles "obsolete".

It is up to you, but you may want to keep copies of the older files, just in case. I don't expect there to be any reversion issues, but one never knows... I recommend renaming the old files, and then copying in the new, if you do prefer to keep copies.

Included replacement files, and where they go:

Components.txt, Facilities.txt, VehicleSizes.txt, and TechAreas.txt - all go in the mod's "Data" folder.

starfleet_main_script.csf - goes in the "Starfleet" folder(s). These will be found in the mod's "Empires not in use" folder, and likely in the mod's "Empires" folder also. Copy the new .csf into both.

klingon_main_script.csf - Goes in the "Klingon" folders - same deal as the starfleet .csf.

(A .csf file is part of the AI for a given empire.)

------

Now if, by chance, you are playing Romulan or Gorn, the replacements "VehicleSizes.txt" and "Components.txt" are the ones you might consider excluding from your update procedure, for now.

What they'll do is change the component sizes. The game will still let you build "current" designs with the wrong amount of tonnage. It will not allow you to make those designs "obsolete". You can do it, but they'll revert back next turn. About 2/3 of your inventory will probably be effected. This is a minor inconvenience, but it can grow fairly annoying over time.

So please, use your own judgement.

What's new? Nothing grand, really. (Very) small AI improvements, and some balance adjustments, mostly. The list of changes is in the spoilers thread.

http://www.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-75413.html#75413

The list isn't too "dangerous", spoilerwise. A couple of weapon and hull names are about all it discloses.


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marhawkman
Space Emperor


Joined: Mar 24, 2008

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

my preferred use for drones is as bullets with engines. I don't usually bother with warheads.

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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marhawkman wrote:
my preferred use for drones is as bullets with engines. I don't usually bother with warheads.


Yeah, the way armor factors into collision resolution... I thought about doing something with the warheads on that account; can't recall what I actually wound up doing. I should probably revisit it at some point.

Good to meet another "giant missile" fan! When the time comes, I think you'll like the drones in SEAW.

I gotta get to work!

----------------
Editing to say: I did get motivated!

Weapon and hull selection plans for all remaining AIs are now complete. I still have to code them, of course. The planning chore is probably something around 20% of the work.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:54 pm    Post subject: Good news, in a way Reply with quote

Well over a dozen downloads, according to the counter. The test version of SEAW has been available for nearly a month now. For the benefit of those exercising restraint, and refraining from viewing the other thread, I am semi-pleased to inform you no bugs have been reported thus far.

There are two obvious interpretations available. Either the community's finding bugs and not reporting, or they are not finding bugs.


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Zwo_Dvoongar
Space Emperor


Joined: Feb 02, 2011

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:05 pm    Post subject: Brief Update Reply with quote

Here's a non-progress report. A few days after my last post, I lost interest in Space Empires. It happened to me once before, and the same thing happened again. I didn't want to look at my mod; I didn't even want to play my mod or anyone else's. I did want to get over it, so I could finish the project.

Maybe I'm getting over it. Today, I got in and commenced work, setting up the mod for the next text game. I made changes to the plasma torpedoes, and increased research costs for the larger hulls.

Next thing to do is either try and fix Borg to be playable, or finish the Hydran AI. All that's left for the Hydrans is to teach them how to choose & use their hulls and weapons. That's a couple of days' work. I don't know how much time it'll take to track down the bugs with the Borg, so that could actually be a quicker project. Can't say how soon I'll get after the Romulan, Gorn, and Borg AIs - probably not too soon, even if my interest has returned. AI work is tedious, at least the parts that need doing.


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